Should I replace my existing office CCTV system?

[bestfootforward 0]

I really would welcome your view on whether I need to replace my current CCTV system.

 

The current system is a 6 camera system using Vivotek IP 7160 2mp cameras connected to a Windows 7 machine. The software used to record and playback on the PC is Milestone Essentials.

 

My dilemma is this - the current system works ok but it can be unreliable in certain situations. Specifically, after a power cut, not all of the cameras always connect back to the recording PC. There appears to be no way to create a warning email in the software to alert the fact that one of the cameras isn't recording.

 

I've logged on a couple of times, and not being able to get the footage I needed because one of the cameras has disconnected for some reason or another.

 

We pay a contractor to maintain the system, and they logon every month, check the cameras are working, check the cameras are recording. However, they really dislike the current setup (mainly because I don't think they are very familar with Milestone software), and their advice is to junk it and replace.

 

We now need to extend the CCTV system by a further 3 cameras as we are expanding our office space. This require 3 new IP cameras, and an additional Milestone license.

 

The CCTV contractor has quoted me almost the same to install three new IP cameras and setup, as the cost of replacing the entire system.

 

They would like to replace the PC with a dedicated

16 Channel 4TB HD DVR with 9 Mini Eyeball Dome Cameras which give an image similar to a 2mp camera. The cameras I believe are not IP cameras and use a different technology.

 

I'd be really interested to hear the views of the people on this forum as to what I should do.

 

On the one hand, I think installing three cameras powered by POE is pretty straight forward. Updating the milestone software also shouldn't be a big deal.

 

On the other hand, the current system has proved mildly irritating at times. If we implemented the new system the contractor is saying he will configure it so that he gets an alert straight away if there is any issue with a camera.

 

All views, ideas and comments welcome

[Boogieman 1]

Run away from this contractor...if they cannot get milestone working they dont know what they are doing...the "different technology" is probably cvi, sdi or tvI, which is analog over coax..its a step backwards...they will have to rerun cable, and it will be difficult to upgrade. If you want to use a standalone NVR, vivotek makes some...you can then just add the additional cameras you need...

How much is he quoting you for this "new" system?

[bestfootforward 0]

Interesting points.

 

He has quoted a 16 Channel 4TB networkable HD DVR

and 9 Mini Eyeball Dome Cameras, installed for £2,630 + VAT.

 

The cost quoted to add three new cameras and upgrade the license on milestone is £2,495 + VAT.

 

I know the cost of the IP cameras is about £200 + VAT each. Power is from existing POE switch. Ethernet cable runs are straight forward. I'm not sure of the milestone license cost to upgrade from 6 to 9 cameras but I would guess it would be around £120.

 

Hence why I thought the quote to upgrade the existing system with 3 more IP cameras was a bit padded.

 

But we still have the issue with the current recording system that if we have a power cut, not every camera always reconnects to the network. Its different cameras each time and isn't consistant - sometime it is fine, sometimes not.

 

Perhaps removing the PC and replacing with dedicated DVR might be a good step forward.

 

What do you think?

[Boogieman 1]

Interesting points.

 

He has quoted a 16 Channel 4TB networkable HD DVR

and 9 Mini Eyeball Dome Cameras, installed for £2,630 + VAT.

 

The cost quoted to add three new cameras and upgrade the license on milestone is £2,495 + VAT.

 

I know the cost of the IP cameras is about £200 + VAT each. Power is from existing POE switch. Ethernet cable runs are straight forward. I'm not sure of the milestone license cost to upgrade from 6 to 9 cameras but I would guess it would be around £120.

 

Hence why I thought the quote to upgrade the existing system with 3 more IP cameras was a bit padded.

 

But we still have the issue with the current recording system that if we have a power cut, not every camera always reconnects to the network. Its different cameras each time and isn't consistant - sometime it is fine, sometimes not.

 

Perhaps removing the PC and replacing with dedicated DVR might be a good step forward.

 

What do you think?

When the camera is down in milestone can you access the cameras web browser directly?

 

Dedicated NVR's while generally more stable have less options...I dont use milestone on a regular basis, but im sure there is a setting that allows you to receive an alert when a camera goes down...have you checked with milestone support about this issue? What version of milestone are you running?

[bestfootforward 0]

That's a good question.

 

I don't know if I can access the camera directly via the IP address, as I didn't think to check it the last time it wasn't working.

 

I've emailed Vivotek to check if they have any views, and I will email Milestone to get their ideas.

 

In terms of the version, I think we are using the latest version.

[Boogieman 1]

That's a good question.

 

I don't know if I can access the camera directly via the IP address, as I didn't think to check it the last time it wasn't working.

 

I've emailed Vivotek to check if they have any views, and I will email Milestone to get their ideas.

 

In terms of the version, I think we are using the latest version.

There is a good chance its the cameras...check to see that they have the latest firmware. You can test it by manually cutting power to the switch, then testing the cams that dont come back...

[bestfootforward 0]

That's a neat idea... will give that a try on Monday.

[Boogieman 1]

That's a neat idea... will give that a try on Monday.

If the cameras come back pk each time...try killing power to the pc and see what happens....

[bestfootforward 0]

Just decided to go into the office and have a play around with various tests to see if I can replicate the problem about the recording PC losing connection.

 

Firstly I powered off then on the PC. The PC reboots, milestone opens fine, and it connected back to all 6 cameras no problem

 

Then I removed the power to one of the cameras, waiting a minute, reconnected it, and again, connection retrieved fine.

 

Firmware on the camera was slightly old, so I have updated them all to the latest version 105a.

 

Not sure what to do next. There is certainly occasionally when there is a power outage a problem an odd problem with a camera not reconnecting. Perhaps this could be an IP conflict?

 

All of the cameras on set to a fixed IP address rather than getting a dynamic IP from the router each time. I'm wondering if this might be the cause of the issue. On the otherhand, if to connect back to the rouge camera, it just requires a restart of the milestone server, perhaps the issue is with the server?

[bestfootforward 0]

Just been playing around a bit more, and I think I have a problem with one of the cameras.

 

It doesn't always respond promptly via the IP interface, it is very laggy. I have tried a external network scan and there doesn't appear to be an issue with IP address conflict, so might be an issue with the ethernet cable or the camera.

 

This particular one is the camera which doesn't always connect back to the milestone server, so I think this could be the issue.

[Boogieman 1]

Just been playing around a bit more, and I think I have a problem with one of the cameras.

 

It doesn't always respond promptly via the IP interface, it is very laggy. I have tried a external network scan and there doesn't appear to be an issue with IP address conflict, so might be an issue with the ethernet cable or the camera.

 

This particular one is the camera which doesn't always connect back to the milestone server, so I think this could be the issue.

the best way to test it is to pull it off the wall and connect it direct to the poe switch via a short patch cable....you may also want to swap ports on the poe switch and see if the problem follows the camera or the port...

[secplus 0]

This is my suggestion at this point. Since the price is going to be the same, just replace the system with a new one, I'm guessing he's quoting you either a HD-CVI or HD-SDI system, which will give you either 720p or 1080p depending on what he sells you. This is way more convenient since everything is on it's own system, and they tend to be more reliable. One key feature is that since all cameras will be powered by a single power supply box, you can put an external UPS on the DVR and the power supply, which will keep the system ON while the power is out. Let us know what equipment he quoted you and I can advice further.

[Boogieman 1]

This is my suggestion at this point. Since the price is going to be the same, just replace the system with a new one, I'm guessing he's quoting you either a HD-CVI or HD-SDI system, which will give you either 720p or 1080p depending on what he sells you. This is way more convenient since everything is on it's own system, and they tend to be more reliable. One key feature is that since all cameras will be powered by a single power supply box, you can put an external UPS on the DVR and the power supply, which will keep the system ON while the power is out. Let us know what equipment he quoted you and I can advice further.

Horrible advice...cvi,sdi is a step backwards..How in the world is cvi "more convenient" how it it anymore on its own system than an NVR...IP give the op the ability to add any ip cameras he wants to add in the future...

You are recommending he run all new wiring so that his system is now limited?

Please...

FYI..last time i checked you can attached a pc nvr or poe switch to a UPS..dont see how cvi is any better in that respect..

 

 

OP, check to see that the static ip address for your cameras are either outside the dhcp range of the router or reserved for the specific camera on the router...have you tried unplugging the switch and the router and see what happens?

[secplus 0]

This is my suggestion at this point. Since the price is going to be the same, just replace the system with a new one, I'm guessing he's quoting you either a HD-CVI or HD-SDI system, which will give you either 720p or 1080p depending on what he sells you. This is way more convenient since everything is on it's own system, and they tend to be more reliable. One key feature is that since all cameras will be powered by a single power supply box, you can put an external UPS on the DVR and the power supply, which will keep the system ON while the power is out. Let us know what equipment he quoted you and I can advice further.

Horrible advice...cvi,sdi is a step backwards..How in the world is cvi "more convenient" how it it anymore on its own system than an NVR...IP give the op the ability to add any ip cameras he wants to add in the future...

You are recommending he run all new wiring so that his system is now limited?

Please...

FYI..last time i checked you can attached a pc nvr or poe switch to a UPS..dont see how cvi is any better in that respect..

 

 

OP, check to see that the static ip address for your cameras are either outside the dhcp range of the router or reserved for the specific camera on the router...have you tried unplugging the switch and the router and see what happens?

 

You are obviously not reading what he said. He's been having problems with the current NVR and IP cameras that he has, so much that even the contractor who deals with this system is recommending replacing it with a DEDICATED system. I choose to recommend CVI because of all the systems I have installed, in my opinion is the best bang for the buck for what you get.

 

The newest technologies and the fanciest stuff is not always the way to go in some situations. He already tried IP, and he's not happy, so why spend all that extra $$$ on more IP stuff that may or may not do what he needs, and considering this is an office system, CVI, SDI, running at 1080p (1920*1080) is more than enough, and yes is COAX, but who's to say that he can't use CAT6 with video balums? I did in a couple if installs that we had wired for IP, until the customer saw some CVI systems and opted to go with those instead.

[Boogieman 1]

This is my suggestion at this point. Since the price is going to be the same, just replace the system with a new one, I'm guessing he's quoting you either a HD-CVI or HD-SDI system, which will give you either 720p or 1080p depending on what he sells you. This is way more convenient since everything is on it's own system, and they tend to be more reliable. One key feature is that since all cameras will be powered by a single power supply box, you can put an external UPS on the DVR and the power supply, which will keep the system ON while the power is out. Let us know what equipment he quoted you and I can advice further.

Horrible advice...cvi,sdi is a step backwards..How in the world is cvi "more convenient" how it it anymore on its own system than an NVR...IP give the op the ability to add any ip cameras he wants to add in the future...

You are recommending he run all new wiring so that his system is now limited?

Please...

FYI..last time i checked you can attached a pc nvr or poe switch to a UPS..dont see how cvi is any better in that respect..

 

 

OP, check to see that the static ip address for your cameras are either outside the dhcp range of the router or reserved for the specific camera on the router...have you tried unplugging the switch and the router and see what happens?

 

You are obviously not reading what he said. He's been having problems with the current NVR and IP cameras that he has, so much that even the contractor who deals with this system is recommending replacing it with a DEDICATED system. I choose to recommend CVI because of all the systems I have installed, in my opinion is the best bang for the buck for what you get.

 

The newest technologies and the fanciest stuff is not always the way to go in some situations. He already tried IP, and he's not happy, so why spend all that extra $$$ on more IP stuff that may or may not do what he needs, and considering this is an office system, CVI, SDI, running at 1080p (1920*1080) is more than enough, and yes is COAX, but who's to say that he can't use CAT6 with video balums? I did in a couple if installs that we had wired for IP, until the customer saw some CVI systems and opted to go with those instead.

Just because he has problems with a bad camera or bad network equipment doesnt mean he needs to step down to cvi. CVI limits the ability to upgrade and camera selection. You make it sound like cvi is trouble free despite your other thread where you cant figure out why you are getting a noisy image. Why is cvi a better choice than a dedicated NVR with ip cameras? no new wiring using poe.

What he needs to do is get someone who can diagnose his problem not some subpar tech whos solution to a glitch is to replace the whole system-thats a dumb approach.

[Samir 0]

A simple solution with be to just remove the pc and replace it with an IP nvr. Then you can add cameras once everything is stable and all the existing cameras are working. (Or in the case of the one possible bad one, replaced.)

[Boogieman 1]

A simple solution with be to just remove the pc and replace it with an IP nvr. Then you can add cameras once everything is stable and all the existing cameras are working. (Or in the case of the one possible bad one, replaced.)

He is not even sure its the pc...how would replacing it help...the problem needs proper diagnosing not simple replacing parts.

[Samir 0]

A simple solution with be to just remove the pc and replace it with an IP nvr. Then you can add cameras once everything is stable and all the existing cameras are working. (Or in the case of the one possible bad one, replaced.)

He is not even sure its the pc...how would replacing it help...the problem needs proper diagnosing not simple replacing parts.

PC DVRs can be clunky and are susceptible to all sorts of problems. It's an easy way to prepare for expanding the system and take out a possible current and future problem.

[Boogieman 1]

A simple solution with be to just remove the pc and replace it with an IP nvr. Then you can add cameras once everything is stable and all the existing cameras are working. (Or in the case of the one possible bad one, replaced.)

He is not even sure its the pc...how would replacing it help...the problem needs proper diagnosing not simple replacing parts.

PC DVRs can be clunky and are susceptible to all sorts of problems. It's an easy way to prepare for expanding the system and take out a possible current and future problem.

That is absolute nonsense...its nvrs that are clunky...pc NVR's run the most complex ip camera setup just fine....you just need to properly set it up...as i pointed out - we dont even know if its the pc at all.

I have over 20 pc setups all running super smoothly.

[Samir 0]

That is absolute nonsense...its nvrs that are clunky...pc NVR's run the most complex ip camera setup just fine....you just need to properly set it up...as i pointed out - we dont even know if its the pc at all.

I have over 20 pc setups all running super smoothly.

I've had the opposite experience. All our stand-alone dvrs are fine, while PC-based ones failed or started having issues after a year or so before being replaced. I'm sure it wouldn't be much different for a pc-based nvr because all the OS problems and vulnerabilities are still there with windows. Unix-based PC-based nvrs would be a different story, and I don't have any experience with them.

[Boogieman 1]

That is absolute nonsense...its nvrs that are clunky...pc NVR's run the most complex ip camera setup just fine....you just need to properly set it up...as i pointed out - we dont even know if its the pc at all.

I have over 20 pc setups all running super smoothly.

I've had the opposite experience. All our stand-alone dvrs are fine, while PC-based ones failed or started having issues after a year or so before being replaced. I'm sure it wouldn't be much different for a pc-based nvr because all the OS problems and vulnerabilities are still there with windows. Unix-based PC-based nvrs would be a different story, and I don't have any experience with them.

Well then you are either

1) running poor hardware

2) running poor software

3) dont know what you are doing.

[Samir 0]

That is absolute nonsense...its nvrs that are clunky...pc NVR's run the most complex ip camera setup just fine....you just need to properly set it up...as i pointed out - we dont even know if its the pc at all.

I have over 20 pc setups all running super smoothly.

I've had the opposite experience. All our stand-alone dvrs are fine, while PC-based ones failed or started having issues after a year or so before being replaced. I'm sure it wouldn't be much different for a pc-based nvr because all the OS problems and vulnerabilities are still there with windows. Unix-based PC-based nvrs would be a different story, and I don't have any experience with them.

Well then you are either

1) running poor hardware

2) running poor software

3) dont know what you are doing.

Wrong on all three. We had outsourced our original pc-based dvr, and it wasn't cheap. There's enough time required just to manage all the patches for all the protections for windows. None of this nonsense with a stand-alone. PC-based dvrs suck for reliability and uptime.

[Boogieman 1]

That explains it all - you outsourced it - and they did a crap job...You simply have no clue is to what you are talking about....my machines are run smooth and i just reboot them every two months for some updates...

The fact that you outsourced it and paid a fortunes speaks volumes about your skill set and technical abilities.

Standalone NVR's have their own issues and unless you spend thousands, do not have the capabilities of pc based systems. There is room for both..in fact I even suggested an NVR if the op determined that the pc was the issue and wanted to go that route....my problem with your recommendation is that you made it without determining that the pc was at fault...it may be a switch, router, or the cameras..that kind of "help" is worthless.

[Samir 0]

That explains it all - you outsourced it - and they did a crap job...You simply have no clue is to what you are talking about....my machines are run smooth and i just reboot them every two months for some updates...

The fact that you outsourced it and paid a fortunes speaks volumes about your skill set and technical abilities.

Standalone NVR's have their own issues and unless you spend thousands, do not have the capabilities of pc based systems. There is room for both..in fact I even suggested an NVR if the op determined that the pc was the issue and wanted to go that route....my problem with your recommendation is that you made it without determining that the pc was at fault...it may be a switch, router, or the cameras..that kind of "help" is worthless.

They did a good job or it wouldn't have even lasted a year. Too many people playing with IE on the system caused it to have issues. If you're having to reboot AT ALL, you have no clue about reliability or uptime in a real security or networking environment.

 

Yes they do, but they are stable. Once you figure out a workaround to a quirk--it works. It doesn't break when a software 'update' breaks it, which can be all too often and unplanned.

 

Diagnosing the original problem is pretty easy, but tedious, and may point to the pc anyways which they are already annoyed with. Replace the pc, and then move to diagnosing the camera. The pc probably won't have the capability to add 3 more cameras anyways, so that's another reason to get rid of the pc.

 

If they didn't want to expand the system, I'd work straight on the camera diagnosis--but that's not the case.

[Boogieman 1]

That explains it all - you outsourced it - and they did a crap job...You simply have no clue is to what you are talking about....my machines are run smooth and i just reboot them every two months for some updates...

The fact that you outsourced it and paid a fortunes speaks volumes about your skill set and technical abilities.

Standalone NVR's have their own issues and unless you spend thousands, do not have the capabilities of pc based systems. There is room for both..in fact I even suggested an NVR if the op determined that the pc was the issue and wanted to go that route....my problem with your recommendation is that you made it without determining that the pc was at fault...it may be a switch, router, or the cameras..that kind of "help" is worthless.

They did a good job or it wouldn't have even lasted a year. Too many people playing with IE on the system caused it to have issues. If you're having to reboot AT ALL, you have no clue about reliability or uptime in a real security or networking environment.

 

Yes they do, but they are stable. Once you figure out a workaround to a quirk--it works. It doesn't break when a software 'update' breaks it, which can be all too often and unplanned.

 

Diagnosing the original problem is pretty easy, but tedious, and may point to the pc anyways which they are already annoyed with. Replace the pc, and then move to diagnosing the camera. The pc probably won't have the capability to add 3 more cameras anyways, so that's another reason to get rid of the pc.

 

If they didn't want to expand the system, I'd work straight on the camera diagnosis--but that's not the case.

a good job lasts a year?

Why is IE even involved?

I dont think you understood - the reboot is to install updates at non critical times...NVR's sometimes require firmware updates as well... This guy is running a small operation, he can reboot once in a while without any problem

[mod - slightly edited because of complaint]