Newbie- Need suggestions on new system- 27 HD cams

[oldsalt 0]

Been researching on this site for the last few days. Great information here.

 

I need to install a camera system on a one acre piece of property that will cover the grounds as well as the perimeter of the home. Hence the large number of cameras. My electrician will be installing it. He has installed many Swann systems and a few Lorex.

 

After doing some research here and elsewhere I’m leaning toward Hikvision instead of the aforementioned brands. I’m sure using a Swann or Lorex system will suffice but we would rather spend a bit more if that’s going to give us a better, more reliable system. We would prefer a pre packaged system for ease of purchase but if we have to buy it peace-meal then so be it.

 

There is so much information floating around out there the more I investigate the more confusing it becomes. The positive thing is that the more I’m reading the more I’m learning.

 

We are looking to spend around 8K.

 

What suggestions do you have? (Recorder, cameras, etc.)

What should I avoid?

 

The following are our requirements—

 

Full High definition NVR

All bullet cameras 1080p HD with night vision weatherproof (4 have to be wireless HD)

PoE for wired cameras ( the longest run is about 250 feet)

We must be able to remotely and securely access the system by computer and IPad

 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[SyconsciousAu 0]

Been researching on this site for the last few days. Great information here.

 

I need to install a camera system on a one acre piece of property that will cover the grounds as well as the perimeter of the home. Hence the large number of cameras. My electrician will be installing it. He has installed many Swann systems and a few Lorex.

 

After doing some research here and elsewhere I’m leaning toward Hikvision instead of the aforementioned brands. I’m sure using a Swann or Lorex system will suffice but we would rather spend a bit more if that’s going to give us a better, more reliable system. We would prefer a pre packaged system for ease of purchase but if we have to buy it peace-meal then so be it.

 

There is so much information floating around out there the more I investigate the more confusing it becomes. The positive thing is that the more I’m reading the more I’m learning.

 

We are looking to spend around 8K.

 

What suggestions do you have? (Recorder, cameras, etc.)

What should I avoid?

 

The following are our requirements—

 

Full High definition NVR

All bullet cameras 1080p HD with night vision weatherproof (4 have to be wireless HD)

PoE for wired cameras ( the longest run is about 250 feet)

We must be able to remotely and securely access the system by computer and IPad

 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

27 cams is going to need some serious hardware to record it. You are probably going to need to look at an enterprise grade dual processor server based NVR with an enterprise VMS solution. That's not a setup you do with Blue Iris. You will be looking at a setup which will need a rackmount chassis, a pair of 16 port POE rackmount switches, as well as the hardware in the NVR before you even get to the camera's. $8K wont go all that far.

 

I would be talking to a CCTV professional rather than an electrician who has installed a few consumer grade DIY systems. What you are proposing is well beyond an off the shelf Swann system.

 

Also why so many camera's? Are you trying to cover every square mm of the place?

[Alanm 0]

Hikvision manufacturers a lot of OEM cameras for other vendors. Their equipment is good stuff.

 

You said your budget is around 8K. Does that take into consideration how you are going to get the signals back from the camera to the monitor/recorder? Are you planning on PoE cameras? Are you running conduit for all the cabling? If I were designing this system, I would go with IP/PoE cameras and using Ubiquiti Nano 5.8gHz units to get the video from the camera to the recorder. You could use 8 port PoE switches for each Nano. The Nano's are relatively inexpensive, so you could have them strategically placed around the property, cutting down on conduit runs.

 

I would avoid consumer grade (Costco/Sam's Club) cameras as they just won't hold up as well as other beefier units.

[Boogieman 1]

Been researching on this site for the last few days. Great information here.

 

I need to install a camera system on a one acre piece of property that will cover the grounds as well as the perimeter of the home. Hence the large number of cameras. My electrician will be installing it. He has installed many Swann systems and a few Lorex.

 

After doing some research here and elsewhere I’m leaning toward Hikvision instead of the aforementioned brands. I’m sure using a Swann or Lorex system will suffice but we would rather spend a bit more if that’s going to give us a better, more reliable system. We would prefer a pre packaged system for ease of purchase but if we have to buy it peace-meal then so be it.

 

There is so much information floating around out there the more I investigate the more confusing it becomes. The positive thing is that the more I’m reading the more I’m learning.

 

We are looking to spend around 8K.

 

What suggestions do you have? (Recorder, cameras, etc.)

What should I avoid?

 

The following are our requirements—

 

Full High definition NVR

All bullet cameras 1080p HD with night vision weatherproof (4 have to be wireless HD)

PoE for wired cameras ( the longest run is about 250 feet)

We must be able to remotely and securely access the system by computer and IPad

 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

27 cams is going to need some serious hardware to record it. You are probably going to need to look at an enterprise grade dual processor server based NVR with an enterprise VMS solution. That's not a setup you do with Blue Iris. You will be looking at a setup which will need a rackmount chassis, a pair of 16 port POE rackmount switches, as well as the hardware in the NVR before you even get to the camera's. $8K wont go all that far.

 

I would be talking to a CCTV professional rather than an electrician who has installed a few consumer grade DIY systems. What you are proposing is well beyond an off the shelf Swann system.

 

Also why so many camera's? Are you trying to cover every square mm of the place?

First, you dont need a dual processor server and an enterpise vms to record 27 cameras...it all depends on his recording and analytic needs which he hasnt mentioned.

This can easily be accomlished by using a 32 or 64ch NVR from hikvision/dahua. Or with an i7 haswell pc running ivms or pss for free, or exac, milestone for a fee...

And if you are going to use a dual processor server, you can absolutely use blue iris for 27 cameras..at 1080p you can even use a single processor high end haswell...

A 32 channel swann (hikvision rebrand) if it exists can handle this too..stop making it more complicated than it is...

[Numb-nuts 1]

If you are getting a CCTV system and would rather spend a bit more on the equipment to make sure you are not disappointed yet you get an electrician to install it? CCTV is based on signalling not electrical circuits and I have just had to rewire an entire 16 channel system that a well meaning electrician installed and finished up with loads of ground loops infested images a DVR without even a hard disk drive in it and wired with copper coated aluminum cable.

 

I would no more take on wiring a house than an electrician should do CCTV. Both completely different.

 

Would you take your car a car valet to get the brakes serviced? Why not,They both know about cars don't they?

 

Do yourself a favour and get a CCTV professional that can recommend proper equipment, not just connect up whatever you tell him to buy. You are on the road to a disastrous scheme and it'll be your fault.

[Boogieman 1]

If you are getting a CCTV system and would rather spend a bit more on the equipment to make sure you are not disappointed yet you get an electrician to install it? CCTV is based on signalling not electrical circuits and I have just had to rewire an entire 16 channel system that a well meaning electrician installed and finished up with loads of ground loops infested images a DVR without even a hard disk drive in it and wired with copper coated aluminum cable.

 

I would no more take on wiring a house than an electrician should do CCTV. Both completely different.

 

Would you take your car a car valet to get the brakes serviced? Why not,They both know about cars don't they?

 

Do yourself a favour and get a CCTV professional that can recommend proper equipment, not just connect up whatever you tell him to buy. You are on the road to a disastrous scheme and it'll be your fault.

He is wiring ethernet and using poe...an electrician can wire it all up just fine...its not rocket science....Just use quality solid copper cable...and know the distance limitations of ethernet...

[oldsalt 0]

Thank for the responses.

 

To answer some of the questions posed -

 

The reason for so many cameras is because of the design of the home and the gardens

on the property. We could actually go with more but 27 to 30 will suffice for now.

 

The 8K(+ -) budget number given was for the CCTV hardware only not peripherals (conduit, cabling, labor, etc.) My apologies, I should have been more clear.

 

As to my electricians abilities, I have known him for years and do not doubt them one bit. He has and does install higher end systems and indeed presented them, however, twenty to thirty thousand is more than we wish to spend on a camera system. I listed Lorex and Swann in my original post since this is the residential board of the forum and they seem to be the most popular brands.

 

This installation falls in-between the off the shelf homeowner system and the 20K and higher systems. We were considering two 16 channel Lorex systems but I started doing a little research

and discovered this forum and the wealth of information here. Hence my leaning toward Hikvision.

I figured for a bit more money I might as well get something better than off the shelf and not have to worry later on. Additionally, because of the length of many of the runs we will have to make our own cables anyway so we would really only be using the cameras and recorder of the “off the shelf” systems.

 

As for the wireless cameras, the furthest one is about 150’ direct line of site to the structure. I had not heard of Ubiquiti and will look into them. Thanks.

 

Thanks again for the replies.

[Numb-nuts 1]

I wonder that you ask for advice at all, you certainly don't listen to the advice.

I don't doubt your electricians abilities, as an ELECTRICIAN. CCTV uses signalling which electricians are not often trained in

You don't want advice, you want someone to tell you what you want to hear.

 

[SyconsciousAu 0]

First, you dont need a dual processor server and an enterpise vms to record 27 cameras...it all depends on his recording and analytic needs which he hasnt mentioned.

 

Admittedly I did make some assumptions about his frame rates, bit rates, resolutions and recording activity and was considering something that would be a zero/few compromises setup.

This can easily be accomlished by using a 32 or 64ch NVR from hikvision/dahua.

 

At a maximum bandwidth of 80Mbs for a Hikvision 32 channel NVR there are going to be some bitrate compromises that need to be made somewhere. That may be acceptable to him. That also leaves no room for expansion without further compromise.

 

Or with an i7 haswell pc running ivms or pss for free, or exac, milestone for a fee...

 

I didn't think IVMS or PSS could do in camera motion detection. With the NVR doing all the motion detection on 27+ cams plus recording even a 4790K might be working hard depending on his needs.

 

And if you are going to use a dual processor server, you can absolutely use blue iris for 27 cameras..at 1080p you can even use a single processor high end haswell...

 

Admittedly I am extrapolating the performance of the latest Haswell Refresh processors vs my experience with Blue Iris on the Ivy Bridge processors and you could probably get away with it at 1080P but again what compromises need to be made? Will the NVR be pulling huge amounts of power constantly. Will heat be an issue? How is this going to effect processor life.

 

A 32 channel swann (hikvision rebrand) if it exists can handle this too..stop making it more complicated than it is...

 

The world is full of CCTV Systems that provide very little in the way of useful evidence. The world is also full of disappointed people that own these systems, have paid good money for them, and have discovered that their system can't do what they wanted it to do after the really needed it. I have a preference for systems that are under stressed, redundant, make no or very few compromises, and are guaranteed to provide video that can be used as evidence.

 

I've answered his question based on what I would do given a need to run 27 cameras but as you have pointed out the OP hasn't told us in a great amount of detail what he wants/needs the system to do. We also know nothing about his property layout which is why I suggested getting a Security and CCTV pro in to discuss his needs in greater detail. Someone who knows the applicable standards. It might turn out he has no real need for 27 cameras and could better use his budget. His security needs may be better met by less cams and more physical measures. How many cams you have and what resolution they are make no difference if you haven't covered off on the other security basics.

 

Old salt I would suggest sitting down with a pad and paper and writing down exactly what security you are looking to achieve. Write down exactly what each of those 27 cameras are going to do for you, and how it is going to do that. Do you have any specific threats or are you just looking to deter the neighbourhood low lives? Do you have specific assets, eg a garage full of vintage cars, that need special protection? Have you considered PTZ cameras?

 

Are the home and gardens already established? If not can they be re-designed to maximise your security? Your need for so many camera's suggests the gardens can readily conceal an intruder from casual observation. If you just want to be able to identify that someone is there, a single 1080P camera can do that across a 50m field of view assuming the layout allows that. I have my personal system set up with overview cameras which allow me to detect people on the property. I have other cameras for identification. You should give consideration to how you are going to observe the cameras. Is this just to record or will you have a monitor in your lounge room or office or workshop or where you choose to spend your time when at home? Are you going to have all the camera's up on the screen at all times, or just a couple to give you an overview. I personally find it better to have fewer cams on the monitor and switch to other cams if/when required.

 

Once you know exactly what you want to achieve the forums will be more than willing to throw in their two cents worth.

[Boogieman 1]

IVMS and pss both use in camera motion detection, milestone and exacq as well. You wont have a problem with an i7 haswell...If op wants an NVR he can just get a 64ch which will support more bandwidth...

As far as blue iris - with that many cams and MP's it needs to be run using direct to disk option...the newer processors are very power efficient, you are looking at about a 50-80w power draw...much less than ANY dual processor server... It all depends on the megapixels and frame rates of the cams...FYI blue iris can do in camera motion detection on axis, mobotix. It also supports in camera motion detection on hikvision cameras that have an alarm output, like the 2432, 2732IS, 2632IS, 2532IS...

I have 23MP (8 cameras running) running an i7-4770 at 15fps-20fps displaying all the cameras and only using 17-22 percent cpu...27 cams at 1080p as OP suggested will not be a stretch with a 4790k..though just running ivms would certainly not be a challenge...

[SyconsciousAu 0]

I have 23MP (8 cameras running) running an i7-4770 at 15fps-20fps displaying all the cameras and only using 17-22 percent cpu...27 cams at 1080p as OP suggested will not be a stretch with a 4790k..though just running ivms would certainly not be a challenge...

 

You learn something new every day. Is that on direct to disk?. What bit rate is that? I've been doing comparisons based on CPU passmark ratings but from what you tell me it appears that there may not be a direct correlation between increase in pass mark score and reduction in CPU usage.

 

My experience seems to indicate that the big user of CPU on Blue Iris is having multiple mega pixels of cameras activated at once, rather than the number of mega pixels hooked up.

[Boogieman 1]

I have 23MP (8 cameras running) running an i7-4770 at 15fps-20fps displaying all the cameras and only using 17-22 percent cpu...27 cams at 1080p as OP suggested will not be a stretch with a 4790k..though just running ivms would certainly not be a challenge...

 

You learn something new every day. Is that on direct to disk?. What bit rate is that? I've been doing comparisons based on CPU passmark ratings but from what you tell me it appears that there may not be a direct correlation between increase in pass mark score and reduction in CPU usage.

 

My experience seems to indicate that the big user of CPU on Blue Iris is having multiple mega pixels of cameras activated at once, rather than the number of mega pixels hooked up.

Yes, it is with direct to disk...recording bumps up the cpu.not too much...higher passmark does lower cpu usage generally but there is more than just the passmark score in play..

Also not displaying the cameras can lower cpu usage further, or you can actually limit the live view to say 5fps but record at 15...though my numbers above are based on displaying at the same frame rate as recording.

I have just never been happy with the limitations of ivms/pss and refuse to pay 100 per license for milestone or exacq for basic type installs...(the cheaper 50 dollar licenses have silly limitations like not being able to write to nas or no two way audio)..

[SyconsciousAu 0]

Yes, it is with direct to disk...recording bumps up the cpu.not too much...higher passmark does lower cpu usage generally but there is more than just the passmark score in play..

Also not displaying the cameras can lower cpu usage further, or you can actually limit the live view to say 5fps but record at 15...though my numbers above are based on displaying at the same frame rate as recording.

I have just never been happy with the limitations of ivms/pss and refuse to pay 100 per license for milestone or exacq for basic type installs...(the cheaper 50 dollar licenses have silly limitations like not being able to write to nas or no two way audio)..

 

I was using PSS and switched to BI as well. I don't think you can beat it for functionality vs price for a residential system but 27 cameras is a BIG residential system. The conventional wisdom has been that BI was too power hungry for big systems without sacrificing frame rate, bit rate, or resolution. Perhaps that has all changed with BI4 and the new fourth generation Intel CPU's.

[Boogieman 1]

Yes, it is with direct to disk...recording bumps up the cpu.not too much...higher passmark does lower cpu usage generally but there is more than just the passmark score in play..

Also not displaying the cameras can lower cpu usage further, or you can actually limit the live view to say 5fps but record at 15...though my numbers above are based on displaying at the same frame rate as recording.

I have just never been happy with the limitations of ivms/pss and refuse to pay 100 per license for milestone or exacq for basic type installs...(the cheaper 50 dollar licenses have silly limitations like not being able to write to nas or no two way audio)..

 

I was using PSS and switched to BI as well. I don't think you can beat it for functionality vs price for a residential system but 27 cameras is a BIG residential system. The conventional wisdom has been that BI was too power hungry for big systems without sacrificing frame rate, bit rate, or resolution. Perhaps that has all changed with BI4 and the new fourth generation Intel CPU's.

BI4 did not improve cpu consumption, however, 64 bit does allow for many more hd cameras without having memory issues...there are several folks for 20-30+ cams on other forums many on single processor systems....with the weaker processors you do need to sacrifice frame rates..

I have not tested the effects of using in camera motion for the hikvison cameras that can trigger BI...

[Securame 0]

At a maximum bandwidth of 80Mbs for a Hikvision 32 channel NVR there are going to be some bitrate compromises that need to be made somewhere. That may be acceptable to him. That also leaves no room for expansion without further compromise.

 

Current DS-7732 units have I think 200mbps incoming bandwidth and 80mbps outgoing bandwidth.