Help w/ System Design for Home Surveillance

[ChinaSailor 0]

Hi Everyone,

 

First, I would like to thank you all in advance for your help and expertise.

 

I am looking to purchase a 6 to 8 camera wireless digital home surveillance system w/ NVR/DVR where I can use 3 or 4 battery operated outdoor cameras and 3 to 4 indoor powered cameras all being connected to a central station that I could plug my PC into to view/manage the operation.

 

I currently have Verizon WiFi for our internet and a Uniden cordless telephone system running at 5.8Ghz.

 

placement of cameras would be well within a 75' range of the central receiving station in a home environment.

 

Features that I would like:

 

all cameras being wireless

camera activated motion detection

day and night video recording

audio recording (but not a must)

3tb or 4tb of storage

simple/easy installation

 

As you can see I am just at the beginning of designing the system. Would like to purchase and install something within the next 2 to 3 weeks.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

Regards,

 

Mike

 

"Home is the Sailor, Home from the Sea...

And the Hunter, Home from the Hill"

[Boogieman 1]

Hi Everyone,

 

First, I would like to thank you all in advance for your help and expertise.

 

I am looking to purchase a 6 to 8 camera wireless digital home surveillance system w/ NVR/DVR where I can use 3 or 4 battery operated outdoor cameras and 3 to 4 indoor powered cameras all being connected to a central station that I could plug my PC into to view/manage the operation.

 

I currently have Verizon WiFi for our internet and a Uniden cordless telephone system running at 5.8Ghz.

 

placement of cameras would be well within a 75' range of the central receiving station in a home environment.

 

Features that I would like:

 

all cameras being wireless

camera activated motion detection

day and night video recording

audio recording (but not a must)

3tb or 4tb of storage

simple/easy installation

 

As you can see I am just at the beginning of designing the system. Would like to purchase and install something within the next 2 to 3 weeks.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

Regards,

 

Mike

 

"Home is the Sailor, Home from the Sea...

And the Hunter, Home from the Hill"

Forget about wireless, its not going to happen. There are units like arlo, but they are junk.

Pay a professional to properly run ethernet in your walls. Then you can use any poe ip camera system you would like.

[zr1 0]

Wireless

Agreed.

You'll be able to connect at first fine.

The issues are:

* staying connected

* knowing quickly enough when you're disconnected

* getting someone on site to reconnect

 

Get a wifi-cam like Arlo, Dropcam, or one of the $40 Chinese versions. They all give similar performance. They all disconnect for whatever reason when you least expect it (and when you're away and not back on site for some time).

The wifi-cams are fun though. Just not there yet to be a trusted tool.

 

Motion

Doable, even on lower end systems. The motion is configurable in a number of ways too. Recording motion only saves hard drive space and makes finding archived video segments easier too.

 

Day/Night

Many cameras do this, some better than others. We talk about Hikvision a lot on here, the Hik's do well with this.

 

Audio

There are cams out there that record audio, not all of them, ya just gotta dig through the specs.

Warning: State-by-state - some states have laws against recording audio. Typically it might be if the person doesn't know they're being audio recorded or if you're not part of the conversation (states vary widely)...and yes...even if it's your own home or business.

 

Storage

Depends on camera resolution, number of cams, and if you're recording constant 24/7 or motion only.

4TB on motion recording for 6-8 cams is really good for weeks, even on a fairly high resolution

 

Battery

Cams use the juice. Some use up to about 7 watts. But others that I use a bunch sip just a little juice at 3 watts. Problem is...3 watts at 12 volts adds up on a 24/7 camera. We're talking larger than car batts here and even then you'll get like a...day?

Solar - more math...but still big batts and a pretty big (and pricey$$$!) solar panel.

I do 4 cams and lights on a portable solar/battery tower for construction sites with no power. The lights do take most of the juice, but we run 3x 225AH batts and a honkin' 280watt solar panel. $20 grand into these towers each and they take some tender battery care every few weeks.

Battery tech just isn't there yet for cams.

 

Those little wifi cams are often 5 volts at around 500 millamps. So one of those LiON USB battery packs can power one of those for like 6-12 hours on a 6000 mAH batt. (yeah...I've done that too...hehe).

But again...they're more fun than work-tools.

 

Easy

The cabling generally takes the most time. It's not rocket-surgery, but the for the DIYer it can take time.

[ChinaSailor 0]

zr1 -- first, thanks for the exhaustive reply and information, much appreciated and much needed.

 

the reason for the "wireless" cams was trying to eliminate installing cat5 cable everywhere from the cam to dvr/base station. We just painted the house and I loathe having to tear up the walls/ceiling, spackle, repaint, etc etc

 

the reason for the "battery operation" was for the outside cams for essentially the same reason in getting wireless, didn't want to have to drill, run power cables, etc etc...

 

Maybe I'll just have to buy some of those more realistic dummy surveillance cams, or buy some defective surveillance cams and install them outside and inside. I was going to do that anyway and then install the real cams in a more hidden manner.

 

I only have 4 entrances to monitor which can be done inside or outside, but would prefer outside and then be able to monitor a good portion of the grounds as well.

 

Thanks again for the information and insight.. it is most helpful.

 

Mike

[Boogieman 1]

zr1 -- first, thanks for the exhaustive reply and information, much appreciated and much needed.

 

the reason for the "wireless" cams was trying to eliminate installing cat5 cable everywhere from the cam to dvr/base station. We just painted the house and I loathe having to tear up the walls/ceiling, spackle, repaint, etc etc

 

the reason for the "battery operation" was for the outside cams for essentially the same reason in getting wireless, didn't want to have to drill, run power cables, etc etc...

 

Maybe I'll just have to buy some of those more realistic dummy surveillance cams, or buy some defective surveillance cams and install them outside and inside. I was going to do that anyway and then install the real cams in a more hidden manner.

 

I only have 4 entrances to monitor which can be done inside or outside, but would prefer outside and then be able to monitor a good portion of the grounds as well.

 

Thanks again for the information and insight.. it is most helpful.

 

Mike

dummy cameras are worthless. Dont waste your time. A professional cable runner can run cable with almost zero damage to walls. It pays to hire someone who knows what they are doing. You dont have to run each camera cable all the way back to the NVR, thats the beauty of ip cameras and network cable.

[Trey T 0]

I have an existing wireless cameras (720p30) and they're unreliable. Here's my input on experience from home burglary:

 

I think the biggest mistake most resident make is understanding the level of security his family needs. A home camera system should be designed as good or better than enterprises, assuming budget allows. The key ingredients, my top three, but not limited to having a good security system:

 

1. Optimal frame rate and bit rate (720p+). Higher fps allow more opportunity for identification a thief or critical moving subject. Based on my two experience from a victim of burglary and being a film editor, I believe 48fps+ is the optimal frame rate. I believe many ppl here thinks 30fps is enough but based on my filming editing, screen capturing a moving person can be tough; in the burglary, I was able to screen capture one guy but the other one was blurry.

 

2. Location and field-of-view. Mounting your camera too high and f-o-v too wide, you can't identify your subject well. Common sense tell us to place cameras to capture everything but I believe this is where we go wrong.

 

3. Number of cameras per area of security. This correspond to f-o-v

 

HOWEVER, some of you may already know finding camera with frame rate higher than 30fps can be expensive, ~500$/unit. Again a home security should be as good or better than enterprise.

[Boogieman 1]

I have an existing wireless cameras (720p30) and they're unreliable. Here's my input on experience from home burglary:

 

I think the biggest mistake most resident make is understanding the level of security his family needs. A home camera system should be designed as good or better than enterprises, assuming budget allows. The key ingredients, my top three, but not limited to having a good security system:

 

1. Optimal frame rate and bit rate (720p+). Higher fps allow more opportunity for identification a thief or critical moving subject. Based on my two experience from a victim of burglary and being a film editor, I believe 48fps+ is the optimal frame rate. I believe many ppl here thinks 30fps is enough but based on my filming editing, screen capturing a moving person can be tough; in the burglary, I was able to screen capture one guy but the other one was blurry.

 

2. Location and field-of-view. Mounting your camera too high and f-o-v too wide, you can't identify your subject well. Common sense tell us to place cameras to capture everything but I believe this is where we go wrong.

 

3. Number of cameras per area of security. This correspond to f-o-v

 

HOWEVER, some of you may already know finding camera with frame rate higher than 30fps can be expensive, ~500$/unit. Again a home security should be as good or better than enterprise.

The blur you are experiencing has NOTHING to do with the frame rate. Its a poor camera and exposure settings.

48fps? are you kidding??

15fps is way more than enough!

Please dont dispense poor advice. It hurts end users.

You simply need a quality camera with correct settings.

[Trey T 0]

For lack of better word, blurry is used bc the guy was running while his partner was scouring through my garage (well lit). Again I'm a film editor and a camera operator shooting at various frame rates (5-60fps) over the years and when i bring the h.264 into the editing suite (Sony Vegas 10 pro) different frame rates matter when freezing a particular frame. Majority of time, 30fps (assuming 1/60s+ shutter)is good to get good freeze frame but what I'm advocating is security, it's critical.

 

It could be exposure setting (it's on auto) but I highly doubt the shutter was slower than 1/60s bc my shop/garage is very well lit.

 

So tell me what is the optimal setting for exposure for a 15fps, 30fps, or 60fps do you recommend?

 

Have you reviewed video of burglary and have to provide images to police?

[Boogieman 1]

For lack of better word, blurry is used bc the guy was running while his partner was scouring through my garage (well lit). Again I'm a film editor and a camera operator shooting at various frame rates (5-60fps) over the years and when i bring the h.264 into the editing suite (Sony Vegas 10 pro) different frame rates matter when freezing a particular frame. Majority of time, 30fps (assuming 1/60s+ shutter)is good to get good freeze frame but what I'm advocating is security, it's critical.

 

It could be exposure setting (it's on auto) but I highly doubt the shutter was slower than 1/60s bc my shop/garage is very well lit.

 

So tell me what is the optimal setting for exposure for a 15fps, 30fps, or 60fps do you recommend?

 

Have you reviewed video of burglary and have to provide images to police?

I have reviewed tons of footage...the optimal setting depends on what you are trying to capture.

For basic home and business use 15fps is WAY more than needed. There is a reason most security cams, even high end, dont do over 30fps...

What camera were you using that captured the blurry image?

[Trey T 0]

Since you reviewed tons of burglary events, tell me how successful we're those cases with 15fps? Did you rely on multiple cameras or single camera of an area for recognizing ALL thieves?

 

Did you dismiss my knowledge bc I didn't prioritize resolution over bitrate or that I only have few post?

 

Your attitude isn't gonna help this forum forward, guys like you will degrade online forums. Look back in 5yrs at this forum and see if I'm right or not. Instead of being professional and provide claims, you, basically, called me a newbie?

 

It's funny that I put in the effort to provide an honest opinion based on various background, and you say that Ill hurt the end users?

 

I can recommend an enterprise system to homeowners but you know in the end, they'll head to costco and get the $399 system and call it a day

[Boogieman 1]

Since you reviewed tons of burglary events, tell me how successful we're those cases with 15fps? Did you rely on multiple cameras or single camera of an area for recognizing ALL thieves?

 

Did you dismiss my knowledge bc I didn't prioritize resolution over bitrate or that I only have few post?

 

Your attitude isn't gonna help this forum forward, guys like you will degrade online forums. Look back in 5yrs at this forum and see if I'm right or not. Instead of being professional and provide claims, you, basically, called me a newbie?

 

It's funny that I put in the effort to provide an honest opinion based on various background, and you say that Ill hurt the end users?

 

I can recommend an enterprise system to homeowners but you know in the end, they'll head to costco and get the $399 system and call it a day

You never discussed bitrate.

Frame rate is independent of bitrate. (though a higher frame rate will require a high bitrate for the same image quality, the settings are independent.)

FYI, most commercial installations are still running with 5-7 fps....the video captures face images just fine. 15fps is OVERKILL but its a nice to have because its more pleasant to look at when reviewing video. THERE IS NO need for 30 or 48fps.

What ruins forums with NO experience giving bad advice.

You are a newbie. That is why your condescending post to a pro installer like ssmith was ironic.

What camera were you using when you experience your motion blur in a well lit garage? Please answer that question.

[zr1 0]

It goes to the goals of the security camera.

 

For movies/cinema/TV/etc:

Goal: Sit in front of the video and watch it A-Z to get the story/action/excitement/cinemetography...and if John Wu wants to slow it down while letting doves fly, that's his style...but it's simply a different goal from security footage.

 

Security cameras

Goal: Find out what's happening.

For this goal, Boogie's on the mark, 15fps is overkill as a good modern camera will easily capture what's going on 5-7 times a second. And with today's multi-megapixel IP systems, one can even be on a 50" LCD and still zoom in for more detail.