Comparing a custom computer based setup vs a prefab home kit

[jasauders 0]

Hello friends. Been a while since I posted here. Recently my dad asked me to help him with setting up a home CCTV system. He wants two cameras and to be able to hold feeds for at least a week. Easy, right? I don't have much experience in the CCTV field, but I do have a setup that works pretty gosh darn well for my own system at home. I'm on the fence between the two worlds of a custom computer based setup vs a prefab home kit. Here's some more background info.

 

My setup at home consists of two Vivotek IP8332 bullet cameras. I have a Linux server running in my basement. This server handles many purposes, so when I had the idea of adding cameras I preferred just throwing a 2TB drive in there and mounting it as a surveillance feed drive for the cameras as opposed to opting into an NVR based setup with another box running 24/7.

 

Installed on the Linux server is a program known as Motion. Motion simply pulls in the MJPG streams of the cameras and based on your threshold of pixel sensitivity, it tracks motion events and records them. I don't care for motion detection much at all, as I have difficulty putting full trust in my security into software deciding what is motion and what is not. I have Motion set up to take only one singular JPG snapshot per event, with each event lasting in 10 second intervals once motion is triggered. At the same time, the Vivotek cameras are recording H264 feeds at 10 FPS to the server using the camera's onboard "Save to NAS" feature. This combination provides me with JPGs to hit "next/next/next/next/next" in an effort to sift through false triggers vs actual events, with the full time feeds right there in the next directory should I need to review something in the full span. This process allows me to blast through events very quickly. Every night at midnight, I have a custom bash script which deletes the feeds that are over 30 days old.

 

I'm on the fence because I look at my setup and think, okay, so that's kind of a custom job thrown together. You take a Linux server, some network cameras, Motion, and the Save to NAS feature on the cams and what you're left with is a series of JPG images to identify the events and MP4 files for the full time records. I hesitate to replicate my setup for somebody else because I'm the one who manages my server, and that's fine. But the up-beat catch to this is my setup works pretty much flawlessly. In two years I haven't had any major issues with it (not kidding - it's actually a very boring project of mine that I thought would be exciting and keep me busy, but it just kind of keeps working). Using a computer as an NVR, for me at least (IT guy speaking), simply makes sense. Any hardware issue I know how to fix. NVR/DVR wise, not so much. Perhaps this is a limitation of my knowledge with CCTV gear, but I'm relatively certain I can more easily track down a motherboard (or whatever) for the computer-based server as opposed to a board for an NVR - and likely cheaper at that.

 

On the flip side, perhaps a pre-fab kit is the way to go. I mean, some of these kits have 4 cameras, POE, decent resolution, etc. They're sold as a kit, so everything needed is included. They'd be a bit cheaper than the setup I'm looking at for my dad with the computer side of things, but not by much, and at the expense of treading into unknown territory with whatever manufacturer I may go with. I simply don't know enough about, say, Zmodo, or Lorex or any other brands that are commonly seen around (I suspect some of you guys may (or may not) be cringing at those name drops right about now )

 

Benefits to the computer system:

-The configs are done on my server -- as a result very easy to replicate on his.

-Parts are wildly easy to come by with a computer based system in the event of a hardware issue. I can pick up a new drive, board, PSU, etc on NewEgg/Amazon/whatever with ease. Not sure how easy it is to find a replacement part on xyz-brand NVR.

-Easy to use, as I would share out the surveillance drive via samba (file server service), making it accessible from his laptop while anywhere else in the house (I suspect prefab systems might offer some functionality like this, but one vendor to another can be so different, hard to articulate a common ground for expectations on the prefabs)

-Given my IT job/hobby, I already have a small low powered rig at home that would serve nicely as the server. A server distro OS comes at no cost. AKA, only hardware/software that will cost money is the cameras, a UPS, and a small POE switch.

 

Benefits to the prefab system:

-Some setups I've seen appear to be cheaper despite the computer hardware savings, but I question their quality vs my computer based setup mentioned above with more expensive cameras and a no-cost server.

-Customer support (I guess?)

 

I left price out of the equation intentionally. I'm sure my dad wouldn't have an issue spending upwards of a grand as he simply wants this done. I just want to maximize the value of the dollar he's spending, but my knowledge and background really isolates me into a different camp than what I'm sure most folks here would side with. It's an issue I fully acknowledge - hence my presence here asking the experts.

 

What say you, folks? What sort of solid, reliable, network based NVR/CCTV setup would you recommend to rival my proposed computer based setup? I have a hard time sifting through the countless makes, models, pros, cons, etc and being able to identify what is solid and what is lackluster. This is largely what sends me back to doing the computer based build since it's predictable - I know exactly what to expect out of it and I know how well it'll work.

 

Thanks for any and all insight.

[zr1 0]

Brands

Zmodo....yeah...those are the Packard-Bell/Yugo/Windows-ME of camera systems. You'll see a lot of talk on here for Hikvision/Dahua...and they really do great.

3 or 4 megapixel Hik's with a Hik NVR, he'd love the system.

While Brand A/B mixing should work through the ONVIF protocol...ONVIF isn't 100% compatible with everything. So when I do a system from the ground up, I try to stay with one brand of cams & NVR simply to avoid compatibility pitfalls. Plus if you do have a bum-device sent to you, having only one brand avoids the discussion with 2+ manufacturers that want to blame each other instead of just getting your RMA.

Vivotek (and Axis applies here too) - great brand, very good quality. But simply overpriced. Hik & Dahua have simply learned to match the Vivotek/Axis quality/performance but at a lower price.

 

Option 3

Buy the cams you want, buy a NVR you want...buy your wire to match the job at hand (a kit will have a pre-sized cable for each cam...so your close cams will have coiled cable and your far cams...you'll shop for more cable anyway)

 

PC vs dedicated recorder device

It's pretty much the argument of a PC vs dedicated device to solve tasks such as a router/firewall, NAS device, FTP device, etc. Sure, I could set up M0n0wall on my friend's LAN to be their router...and it'll do really cool stuff. But she'd be calling me a bunch more than if I just bought her an out of the box router.

 

PC:

Total geek bragging rights

I'm about to (finally) retire a NAS I have running on BSD on an old Athlon 600. But with out-of-the-box NAS drives out running on a mere 7 watts, it's time for ye-olde-Athlon-120-watt-box to go. I thought about geeking with an unused RasPi...but I'll simply copy the data to one of the existing dedicated NAS drives in the house.

Upgrades

If you've already got 4 cams on your PC system and want to upgrade...then another capture card and make sure you've got enough RAM/horsepower, then you're good to go.

TLC

A PC system does need more TLC as you maintain the OS layer and software layer too....in addition to the camera/recording settings.

 

Dedicated NVR

Function

It does about 98% of every function a PC system does..including remote/smartphone access

TLC

It does it trouble-free 24/7

Fire-and-forget...(nearly) no late night calls to you to do this or that.

Wattage

Less wattage (unless your PC-setup is a RasPi or similar..though CPU horsepower is a problem on something like the RasPi)

Configuration

Figure 23 1/2 minutes if you've done it before. An hour if you've never done it before and didn't read the instructions. And that's including the time it takes to take it out of the box, throw in a 2TB or 4TB drive, and turn it on. The interfaces are fairly easy to navigate for someone familiar with IT job/hobby.

Price

Typically cheaper compared to buying a new PC (though if you have PC parts laying around everywhere like some of us...). Though when I get up past...say...32 cams...a PC system can end up being cheaper.

Upgrades

uh...not as much. If you buy an 8 channel NVR...the NVR will only address 8 channels...period. So if he has 6 cameras planned, sometimes my customers will go with a 16 channel NVR for future expansion.

 

Now for me to get back to my latest project...RasPi-powered-wall-Google-calendar...with leftover unused RasPi/monitor/etc. That is...until Wall Calendars are available to purchase cheaply, right?

[jasauders 0]

*snip*

 

Thank you for your very detailed response. It gives me a lot of insight and a lot to consider. I think the biggest issue with my stance is I simply didn't know what pre-fab solutions made the most sense when it came to bang vs buck. Without any further insight coming from somewhere such as this forum I wouldn't feel even the slightest bit confident to pursue a pre-fab solution knowing full well the setup I could do would be darn near bulletproof. The one area that concerns me is if my dad would want to change anything about the setup. Honestly, I don't believe he would. He's a set it, forget it, etc. kind of guy. *But* if he would want to change anything it would almost certainly require my presence (or at least a TeamViewer session so I can remote in, then after SSH over). In terms of actual maintenance though, that's pretty straight forward. Server will pull in security updates automatically and require nothing from him whatsoever. I would prefer that he have the ability to change settings on the fly, though I really don't see that being an actual "thing" with him. He literally tasked me with "Find me something, let me know what I need to buy, and help me install it - that's it." But there again I hate to recommend him a route that limits end user preference changes.

 

I've heard Hikvision mentioned before, but I didn't really know how well they scaled in terms of being a good product. I'll keep them in mind and do some searching around. I'm just quickly scanning online and feeling like I'm seeing a wide range here. There are some 8 channel NVR kits with cameras that are well over a grand. 8 channel is kind of obnoxious for his uses (his property isn't that huge to begin with), though I found some Hikvision cameras to be in a *very* acceptable price range while the 4 channel NVR is 300 bucks (without HDD).

 

Likewise, these NVRs are POE anyway, which would eliminate the need for a POE network switch. There's still more of an up front cost with the NVR given the computer/server is "paid for" being a decommissioned rig, but the HDD expense exists either way, and the Hikvision cameras look cheaper than what I thought, which softens the overall financial blow.

 

The one and totally irrelevant to CCTV benefit that he would get out of going the computer/server route is the fact he mentioned he wanted to set up some sort of backup procedure. With a dedicated server, I could just drop in another drive and bingo - CCTV drive, backup drive, winning. I have enough small book-sized Intel Atom based systems sitting around though - I'll get him hooked up on something like that as a home backup server if I go the NVR route (which based on what I'm reading here, I'm strongly considering).

 

While I *love* my current setup with my CCTV, I'm looking at these Hikvision prices and really beginning to wonder if I should go this route when the time comes to upgrade my setup. I was just going to add two more Vivotek cameras, but being a creature of habit I was going to use the exact same make/model camera (to the tune of 299 per camera). That would give me 4 cameras total, but no NVR, still running off my server. Anyway, getting off topic to the original point of the thread. Bottom line is I have you, zr1, to blame for making my mind wander into other avenues when my future upgrade comes.

 

P.S. - Excellent idea mentioning the Google Calendar display. I might consider whipping up the same thing. Are you rocking a full size LCD or going the route of the ras-pi LCD they just released?

Edited September 24, 2015 by Guest

[zr1 0]

The dedicated systems do remote access for 98% of their functioning. So resetting your dad's password, pulling an archive video, setting the brightness on a specific camera, no problem. You can even set up your dad with a specific login that limits his NVR-configuration and just gives him video access.

 

Even the way-cheapo-$60-8-channel NVR's will do that (despite the occasional typo that ends up in their Chinese-to-English translation). Though on the cheapo-versions, make sure they have the data-throughput. The Hik's are generally 50Mbps-100Mbps...plenty. Then there's the Brand A/B mixing compability possibility.

 

Amazon

Like buying Escort radar detectors on Amazon, some Amazon sellers are not authorized dealers. This means they customized (hacked) the firmware and you wouldn't be able to do update the firmware if needed. Not always needed, but firmware and warranty concerns are a thing when buying from Amazon...Aliexpress..ebay.

 

OT: Google Calendar:

I live by my G-Cal...as does my fiance. So on merging families Brady-Bunch-style (and our teens glued to their Android phones as it is... http://www.theonion.com/video/brain-dead-teen-only-capable-of-rolling-eyes-and-t-27225 ...oh...Onion...hehe)

* Each with our own G-Cal (5 of us)

* The RasPi has it's own G-Cal

* The RasPi gets view-permission on everybody's G-Cal and displays/overlays all G-Cals on a leftover 19" monitor that I'll wall mount in the kitchen.

 

I thought about doing a touchscreen monitor and give the RasPi G-Cal account write-permissions...but figured I'd go simple and let each person add/edit their own calendars.

 

And I run two calendars personal/work on my G-Cal anyway...so one of them would be for displaying on the family wall calendar, and the daily-work-appointments appointments would simply only be on my devices.

 

There's a couple versions out there....here's one I'll follow along for this basic idea:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Raspberry-Pi-Wall-Mounted-Google-Calendar/?ALLSTEPS

 

Now if I really wanted to, I'd do a Magic Mirror calendar...with an embedded security camera display in the corner (such as the front door) like this:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/magic-mirror/

But I'm not there yet (nor is my fiance...lol!...that WAF (Wife-Acceptability-Factor) thing)

[jasauders 0]

Ha, you posted just as I edited above where I removed my mentioning of Amazon. I took note that Amazon's Hikvision is not official. I found myself on WrightwoodSurveillance.com, which from what I've read in the few minutes I've been reading online reviews, suggests it's a legit site to purchase from (I'll let you guys be the judge, though). The prices on this site aren't that bad. They're not as low as "Amazon" but certainly not in a range that makes my heart skip a beat.

 

Just curious, if I were to go the Hikvision route and do full time recording, what's the interface/playback look like to the end user? The idea behind my Vivotek/server setup was to have a way to quickly identify when events happened despite having full time recordings (hence motion based JPG snapshots + 24/7 recording via save to NAS). If a Hikvision NVR can record 24/7 but still have some sort of listing of when events happened, and therefore, a quick way to replay those events when actual motion took place within the full time recordings, that'd be a total win.

 

P.S. - Sounds interesting with the calendar idea. I may have to brew something like that up. I wonder about doing a split screen thing too, perhaps with a note taker on one corner of the screen where we can type things in (or just full screen both and have a keyboard there for a quick alt/tab), such as "need at the grocery store: ketchup, mustard, hot dogs, rolls" that syncs to our phones. Then when at the grocery store, we can pull it up. Sounds like an Evernote oriented task, or perhaps Google has a note taker within the Calendar UI somewhere. Same idea either way, but might have to explore around.

 

Appreciate the added insight.

[jasauders 0]

Curious if someone can further clarify something for me. I was browsing around and found a discussion comparing Dahua and Hikvision. This post was from a year ago, however, it was as follows.

 

"Hikvision does require their software to view them in the browser. I didn't like that but oh well. I mainly view my cameras on my phone with the app IP Camera Viewer Pro."

 

This immediately concerns me. This gets into a long story, but my dad has had a lot of issues on Windows which ultimately churned to his curiosity for "hey, that doesn't look like Windows on your laptop" and lead to him running Ubuntu - which is something he couldn't be happier with. Naturally, I question that this need for "additional software" just to work with the Hikvision to come with the assumed requirement of "Windows." It's probably worth mentioning that of course anything that requires ActiveX is an immediate "no" on the list of potential candidates.

 

Can anybody confirm if Hikvision requires any sort of special application, or perhaps an operating system dependent plugin for a web browser? Even if it works in Firefox, Chrome, etc., fine, but if it requires a plugin for said browser, that's still something I'd want to investigate.

 

Bottom line, I want something that works in any major web browser without futzing around with additional software and whatnot. I hadn't heard in all of my reading until now that this was ever a concern with Hikvision, but this comment has me wondering.

 

EDIT - It's also worth mentioning that exported feeds that come out of whatever NVR setup I may choose need to be in a non-exclusive format. I understand Dahua, for example, requires a specific video player to play their specialized feeds.

 

More and more I am liking the idea of just going the NAS route (by NAS I mean low power PC hardware + a Linux server OS). If nothing else, I know Vivotek can do NAS-based video dumps in MP4 format to a samba share. Then I can, you know, play them on any normal video player. So in a worst case scenario, I'll go that route, as I know it'll work with ultimate flexibility and minimal headaches. It's just I keep thinking that NVRs exist for a good reason, yet as I dig into this it's one headache/"oh a new major thing to look out for" after another.

 

To summarize, looking for an NVR setup that addresses the following needs:

1) Equal cross platform support (Linux included), or better yet, cross browser support

2) Pending cross browser support exists, does not require a specific plugin only available on a particular platform (which nukes the credibility to saying it's cross browser support, but worth mentioning)

3) Is not locked to ActiveX/Internet Explorer in *any* capacity

4) Does not export files in an exclusive format requiring a special video player to view

5**) Allows the live feeds to be played in standard video players, i.e. VLC, etc.

 

**While Hikvision sounds like it requires a Windows/Mac only plugin for Firefox to view live feeds, I can easily circumvent this with custom VLC.desktop (application launcher) files designated for each camera pending that Hikvision cameras support #5 -- playing live feeds in a regular video player. I do this in my current setup, as I can just click "rear cam" and boom - VLC launches already streaming the rear camera URL, etc.

 

Pending that I cannot find a solution that fits the above parameters, I'll go the camera-PC/NAS route and call it a day. But that comes with some requirements of its own, namely that the cameras do not save-to-NAS in an exclusive format (#4 above). My Vivotek just does save-to-NAS in .MP4 files, and it's wildly convenient. (fun fact - when a situation last year came up and I handed my footage over to police, they expressed surprise that they could just "double click the files and they work", making me suspect a lot of the footage they get requires that police install other exclusive players to play these locked down formats they get from other folks).

 

If the PC hardware/NAS route is the chosen path, it seems I need to make sure how well supported the save-to-NAS functionality is. I heard reports that Hikvision cameras were only able to see Samba shares that were less than 250GB in size due to a firmware bug... haven't seen any reports on whether that's been fixed or not.

 

Sorry for the long post, edits, etc., but cross-OS/cross-browser/standard-exported-format support is important (critical) to me on not only a technical level given what OS is running on the client systems, but a philosophical level. I just can't bring myself to support companies that don't support end user flexibility.

[Securame 0]

Congrats to you both, this is one interesting thread.

 

@jasauders, with Hikvision you can easily set up links that will launch an RTSP stream with VLC. Live view won't be a problem with Ubuntu. Playback might be.

 

Hikvision does need a plugin to be used from a web browser. It currently works with everything under Windows, except Chrome, this is why: https://www.chromium.org/developers/npapi-deprecation

Hikvision is working on newer firmwares, which are supposed to be released before the end of the year. They will bring back Chrome support, but I have no clue on how they will do it, it might also make it work without plugins on other OS, but I would not count on it.

 

Playback; I think most CCTV systems do need some kind of custom manufacturer software for playback. Why? Because we are not just recording videos for youtube. There are other things to keep in mind on a CCTV system, like data integrity, watermarks, etc. So there have to be ways to verify that a recording has not been manipulated at all, and each manufacturer does it their own way. I can not give details, because I do not have them, but keep in mind that a recordings downloaded from a DVR/NVR are usually not just an MP4 video. Now, some systems have ways for exporting to different data formats, with Dahua when you download a recording iot gives you the option to do it with their native format (.DAV) or to export it to AVI, I guess a normal export will give you the DAVs which will have to be used with their player, and as AVI it will be reencoded as a normal AVI, which can be used with any player.

 

With Hikvision; I usually just export and play back with VLC. But I am not sure if VLC directly supports it, or if the Hikvision codecs are needed (which probably can only be used on Windows). Feel free to PM me your email, and I will send you a sample video so you can try to play it back.

 

There is also iVMS-4200 for Linux (Hikvision's software), but its development is always way behind the Windows version (the same applies to the Mac version).

[jasauders 0]

Thanks for your response, Securame. I understand CCTV is not operating in a way to benefit the YouTubers of the world. I guess what it comes down to is I simply... have my stance. Whether it be a CCTV topic or not, I just feel (quite strongly) that technological things like this only complicate matters when things are intentionally designed to be unnecessarily complex. I did some reading on CCTV legalies before. My understanding is that for it to be upheld in court, the date/time stamp must reside on the embedded video itself - otherwise it's useless. I didn't read of any other requirements -- not even one mention of the exclusive formats being beneficial in any way on a legal ground. If that'd be a thing, that'd be news to me, especially given my .MP4 save-to-NAS feeds from my Vivotek cameras were used to put two guys back in jail (again) for digging through unlocked cars at night. My last understanding was despite the 100-or-so cars they hit, I was the only one with a video feed of it.

 

Years ago when I worked IT in a different school district, some kids broke into the school to do some sort of senior prank. The DVR/NVR they had (DVR with network/web browser access) actually had no export option (I'm not kidding). Best I could do was run a screen recorder program while playing the live feed back in regular watching speed, then stop the screen record when I got to the end. That file dumped into an AVI. That file as well was handed over to state police, which escalated matters in that case against the students since the students somehow associated a lot of internal damage to the school somehow being a "senior prank".

 

Securame - I'll PM you my email. Thank you very much for that suggestion of testing a Hikvision export within Ubuntu. That'll help put some of these considerations to rest. The only other thing I'd be curious about is whether Hikvision's save-to-NAS feature records videos in one of those exclusive formats or a more flexible format that would be easier to work with. Do you by chance know how they are saved?

 

Thanks again for your time.

 

P.S. - I'd be surprised if VLC on Windows had more functionality than VLC on Linux, though it would make for a *very* interesting test. A big reason why VLC is not included by default on an Ubuntu installation is the fact that VLC supports a multitude of codecs bundled with VLC itself that cannot be legally distributed automatically, but are still legal for utilization pending a manual install was done (automatic meaning already available by default on a free OS install such as Ubuntu). Other Linux distributions get away with this due to their smaller size, making them a smaller target, and also being a community driven distribution instead of one with the face of a company supporting them (consider the differences between Canonical's relationship with Ubuntu, whereas for example, Linux Mint just has some Mint developers from who-knows-where in the world working on the code - no official company to target with legal pursuits). The ultimate test for this would be to play the videos using Totem in Ubuntu (the default player) vs VLC media player (installed in Ubuntu manually).

 

EDIT - Securame sent me the sample feed. It worked just fine using Totem and VLC on Ubuntu 15.04 (for anybody curious). Thanks Securame!