Any advice greatly appreciated

[rickgto 0]

I'm sure you guys hear this alot but I need some expert advice on a CCTV system before I waste anymore money. Due to car parts disappearing here at my shop I've decided to install a camera system and the farther I get into it the more unhappy I am with the results. My shop is a 40x80 building in the upper left corner of a 100' x 250' lot (if this helps). The entrance off the main road (between rows of cars and past the building) is approx 30' wide x 120' long and goes into the large lot behind the building. The rear lot is approx 100' wide x 110' deep and cars line the entire perimeter. the farthest point/car from the building is approx 120' and the cameras would have to be mounted on the building. I made the very big mistake of listening to a salesman and purchaced a Clover 4015 4 channel DVR, a Clover 2100 monitor, and 4 "Ebay" cameras "listed" as Sony CCD 1/3 480 TVL color day/night box cameras with 2.8-8 varifocal auto-iris lenses. This system could'nt identify a 747 at 60 feet!!! And that's live display. Recordings are worse. I know I got burned on the $136 each camera/lens/power supply packages and after some reading of your forums found the Clover equipment to be....well.........less than desirable. So, I went and bought a Nuvico NVDV2-8000. I don't have it here yet and don't even want to install it until I have cameras/lenses good enough to do what I need. I'm looking for extremely clear images from the cameras obviously for recognition should I need too. I know field of view/clarity at distance is going to be a major problem for me and that's why I went to an 8 camera DVR figuring 4 "good" cameras covering the back lot rather than 2 Ebay camera look-alikes as it is now. I do have high pressure sodium lighting in the rear but right now they degrade (these) cameras clarity tremendously. Kind of a colorful underwater shot. I hope I ordered a DVR that will work for me but I could really use some help on the cameras and lense combo's. 2 or 3 would only need to see out to approx 50' x 50' or so wide but the rear 3 would need to see clearly out to just over 100' and be able to cover the same width collectively. Any suggestions?? And I apologize for the long post but figured as much info as possible would help. Thanks!!

[Thomas 0]

Getting depth of field out to 100' and covering a 100' x 100' area isn't possible with current and even next generation cameras. The further out you focus a camera, the smaller your width will be.

 

Can you post a rough sketch of the layout for the cameras?

[CollinR 0]

When are they stealing stuff?

 

Who do you think is doing it?

 

How are they getting in/out?

 

 

Security and inventory control go way past CCTV, CCTV is almost always reactive. It's goal is usually to help capture evidence of something for future use. There are simple proactive methods (like the lighting you mentioned) that have excellent bang for the buck ratios. If you can concentrate as much on preventing the theft as you do on capturing it.

[JMANOFNVS 0]

I must agree with Thomas and CollinR. You can have a wide shot and see the entire are but won't be able to make out a 747 at 100ft or you can have a narrow shot and count the nose hairs on a fly. Best thing would be to get you more lighting and point a couple cameras at the most common stolen stuff and maybe a couple PTZ's on tours with presets set off by a couple motions. Haven't sold that Nuvico DVR but there domes and cameras are nice.

[rickgto 0]

I realize 1 camera can't cover the area. Or even 2 for that matter. I have 2 back there now and they do cover it but the distance (8mm lenses) are such that it's too far for recognition. My plan is to put 3 to cover the 100' wide parking lot with more powerful (or wide angle?) lenses. I have no idea how to draw a sketch with the computer so picture this if it makes sense. The lot is a rectangle 100' wide by 250' deep. the 100' wide is North/South and 250 East/West. The building (40x80) sits in the NW corner with 40 being the width (60' left for lot) and 80 deep so the lot is basically a backwards L. The building is 12' high at the eaves with a 30' wide deck on the rear that is as high as the eaves and surrounded by a 4' tall fence like enclosure. That's where I have the rear cams installed. On the fence top plate. They're approx 16' up looking down on the rear lot/cars/trailers. The farthest point from them to what they watch is just over 100'. the rear lot is also a turn around for vehicles that come in here. Behind the lot and either side if it is wide open conservation/woods property. "Walk in's" can do just that from behind my property so pretty much any and all the discouraging I've tried with lights and more lights didn't help much. And, believe it or not alot of things like gas caps and such disappear during the day when people are "browsing" the lot. Already caught a few of them. But just by luck. I physically saw them. Biggest problem for the lighting being a deterrent is there's nothing (population wise) within 1/2 mile and someone simply parking within a row of cars at night would never be noticed from the main road. I have thought about the PTZ's and think they would work great watching the entrance. It's not like I have alot of stuff walk away but when I do it's things like a tonneau cover from a pickup or transmissions and such from the bottom rear deck. No idea who but I do know it's between 10p when I leave and 7a when I get here. My guess is they're coming in from behind.

[Thomas 0]

I think there are some basics that need to be gone over here. I suspect to reach your goals, you will need to have well over 8 cameras.

 

For any kind of recognition you need to have the face take up a third of the image. Same with plates. At 100' facial recognition is going to be extremely expensive. Both for the cameras needed and the number of cameras needed. But I'm guessing you have a budget and that budget isn't going to allow for that kind of cost.

 

I'm going to suggest you select certain areas as ones you need to cover.

[rickgto 0]

I think there are some basics that need to be gone over here. I suspect to reach your goals, you will need to have well over 8 cameras.

 

 

I'm going to suggest you select certain areas as ones you need to cover.

 

 

 

I pretty much figured that and I'm not real concerned with covering the whole lot and it's contents per se. As far as the front/side of the building and cars across from it I believe a single camera will do. My thinking is any vehicle entering or exiting has to use the driveway (no choice there unless it flies) and would pass that particular camera once in and once out at about 25'. And, staying anywhere in the front lot is easily picked out from passersby (cops) simply because cars line both sides of the lot the length of the building. Only place to park would be in the middle of the entrance driveway.Out back however, a vehicle or people cannot be seen (even in daytime) from anywhere except overhead. The cameras I have now I know are extremely low quality (I think) but even with the garbage picture they produce I can make out brand, color, and "approximate" year from the recording the DVR I have now produces. What I mean is if my existing front camera records a green whatever pickup come in the driveway and the rear existing cameras record that same green pickup park and 2 things that resemble human beings get out and do whatever, that's the most I'll get out of these cameras. The green pickup. I'm looking for camera/lens combo's with high enough quality to see a green 96 Silverado with Z71 on the side and no rear bumper with 2 males getting out of it. Any vehicle that pulls into the rear lot has no choice but to get within 30-40 feet of the cameras turning around to get out of the rear lot. I'm pretty confident I can position cameras to get what I'm after. I'm just after advice on what cameras and lenses to look into quality wise. I do know the difference in focal length vs distance and field of view but that's where it ends. I have'nt a clue what difference an f.095 would have over an f1.2 or if ebay lenses are (that) much different clarity wise than a Computar or whatever. Cameras too. They all seem to have a fairly close spec in the one's I've been looking at but I can tell you first hand I'm an avid believer in cost vs quality. For instance, here's a link to what I thought would be a good clear camera

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5876366279&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT

 

 

It's not. I also picked up a Sony model SSC-M183 for $29 (used)and it blows the doors off the more powerful camera for clarity. So I guess my quest is to know what brand of cameras you guys recommend as well as lenses for good, clear video. Thanks, Rick

[rickgto 0]

Please don't take this as an advertisement but rather for me to show you what I'm trying to cover. If you go to suburbanautosales.com and scroll down you'll see how my place is laid out. That is the only entrance and the lot goes behind the building to the right. It's fenced lengthwise on the left and other than walking in, cannot be gotten into from the right or far end. The drive is 55' wide between building and fence so with cars on either side the entrance itself past the building is only 20 or so feet wide and 20' from the building/camera.

[Cooperman 0]

rickgto,

 

You've already had some good advice from the guys, but I thought I'd throw in a couple of suggestions.

 

If you have time, draw up a rough plan of the lot, and mark down all the incidents you are so far aware of. This will possibly provide a visual of 'cluster' points where regular incidents occur. These are the locations you should concentrate on, as they have the highest probability of repeat offences.

 

If you were to use cameras fixed at a distance, you'd probably be looking at using good quality telephoto lenses, (on a 1/3" camera) that would be possibly 25 > 50mm focal length. If you only install a couple of good quality working cameras in an area, you can always consider installing a couple of additional weatherproof housings with dummy cameras inside. If it's done properly then none of us would know if they were working or not.

 

You could also think about another slightly sneaky option. If you have a hotspot which is difficult to cover from a distance, you could always consider a temporary recording system in one of the vehicles. A decent miniature bullet camera in the vehicle, and a 12v powered recorder hidden in the boot (sorry trunk!), would be ideal for catching suspects at short distances.

 

As for manufacturers, I'll have to leave that up to the local experts to make some suggestions. Whatever you decide, it need not cost a fortune, but personally I'd avoid ebay unless you can afford to keep making mistakes.

[CollinR 0]

You could also think about another slightly sneaky option. If you have a hotspot which is difficult to cover from a distance, you could always consider a temporary recording system in one of the vehicles. A decent miniature bullet camera in the vehicle, and a 12v powered recorder hidden in the boot (sorry trunk!), would be ideal for catching suspects at short distances.

 

You won't beat em if you don't join 'em

 

He's got semi trailers.

 

 

You need a privacy fence like nobodies business!!!! Block that back access to foot traffic. Motion lighting back there with possibly a siren or just tone pulse to make the guy think it's more then just $20 wally world motion lights.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How much are you loosing in a month?

[rickgto 0]

[

 

He's got semi trailers.

 

How much are you loosing in a month?

 

 

 

Yea. And those semi trailers are packed front to rear, top to bottom with 1964 thru 1974 Pontiac GTO parts. My rear deck is stacked with doors, fenders and decklids that won't fit in the trailers cause they're so full. The trailers don't get bothered at all for reasons I won't get into and I know I have to do something about the rear. But, whoever came in that way would have to be the Hulk and have the stamina of a lab puppy to get parts out. That's all conservation property (only road entrance is over a mile from here) and a creek is my rear lot line. Closest place to even park a vehicle and walk in from behind is a good 1/3 mile. And it's not that I'm losing alot per month it's simply that I've lost "something" by thieves. I take stealing my property very personally and I will do anything it takes to catch them. Lighting, fences, and everything meant to deter criminals doesn't have quite the effect around here as identifying one and making an example of them and I'd have no problem spending 10 grand to get back 1 and know who did it. Believe me. Word's already out I'm installing a camera system and that alone cut "late night" lookers through here more than in half. To never see and catch a thief is my ultimate goal but we all know if there's something to steal, someone will. Anyway, it's going well as far as placement of the cameras I already have and once I'm happy with they will be able to see I'll get some cameras that will be able to see it....clearly...

[KrCCTV 0]

I vote for a fence too - - not pretty and maybe not cheap… but limiting access may just prove to be your very best first step with such a large area and so many obstacles (probably not always parked in the same place) to consider.

 

Given a fence I’d then seriously consider a pair of very nasty dogs (reared on raw meat and then kept slightly underfed) with signage notifying of cameras and dogs that cannot be missed. Then more lighting and finally cameras to protect the dogs.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Guest

[VST_Man 1]

lights, cameras, action! mine fileds work pretty good too.

[rory 0]

Install some Alarm Beams as well .. check out Optex ... you could tie them into the DVR also.

[CollinR 0]

Beams are a good idea assuming you don't have alot of dear even then if it only trips the DVR it's no biggy.

 

 

 

What you need to do is find a spot where they all go, maybe make one with a dummy. A 700R4 or 9" you can plainly see but can only really get at from one direction. Train the camera on that. People are dumb get creative...

 

 

Entry and exit, if you can narrow this you can ID them at the entry/exit and just document them with the wider shots you already have.

 

 

Your monthly loss should be relative to your budget thats the only reason I asked.

 

You don't have much of a prayer at catching browsers, that would take many more cameras. Same almost goes for foot traffic from the back too but at night I think you have a chance using some psychology.

 

I have never seen a parts yard without a fence and dogs at night, chit works.

[rory 0]

oh yeah, definately a fence with Razor wire ..

[rickgto 0]

Beams are a good idea assuming you don't have alot of dear even then if it only trips the DVR it's no biggy.

 

Entry and exit, if you can narrow this you can ID them at the entry/exit and just document them with the wider shots you already have.

 

I have never seen a parts yard without a fence and dogs at night, chit works.

 

 

Oh I'm not a parts yard. I own/run an independent Harley parts/repair/service shop since about 1988 (and tired of it) and let a freind of mine talk me into stocking and selling used cars about 3 years ago. The GTO stuff is a personal 30+ year collection. A hobby. I've bought and sold musclecars and parts since I was 16. Stocking vehicles is when my trouble began really. Hubcaps, toolboxes and covers from pickup's, gascaps, and even people backing into/hitting cars (unseen by me) but nonetheless costing me. What exactly are these beams? And not to sound as security system ignorant as I really am, but what are the "alarm in/alarm out" on the DVR? The wonderful manual that came with the Clover shows them but the only mention of them is setting alarm time. Nothing about what they do or how they do it. The Nuvico isn't here yet but I know it has the same function too. As far as narrowing an identification point, I plan to aim a strong lensed (good) camera at the entrance along with a strong motion light. It's about a 25' shot and I can position vehicles here to narrow the entrance/exit to a single lane. If I can pick up a plate number that's great but I'm counting more on the fact of a distinguishable trait of the vehicle. Should be pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together with what the rear cams will see along with close ups from the entrance. And yes, I have lots of deer, turkey, and whatever else back there just about every night. Funny thing too. I never seem to have a problem during hunting season. I wonder if me or my boy's sitting back there with a 12ga slug gun has something to do with it................

[rickgto 0]

Not much input to this thread and I do understand those of you that can't really comment because of job or brand loyalty. So I'll just relay what I tried and the results of. I finally had the Nuvico NVDV2-8000n delivered about 2 weeks ago and started experimenting. It in itself is a very large forward jump over the DVR I had before but going back to my original question on what's a good camera let me say this. I initially bought a couple cheap IR cams that are just that and a couple more expensive advertised as "Sony" that are a joke. So, I started looking at brand names but in the used category and picked up a couple Samsung, a Sony or 2, a JVC, a Panasonic and 1 Pelco. Using their specs for comparison I found a few online vendors and figured I'd upgrade to better cameras. Not so. Although some of the cameras that are advertised with Sony chips and "extremely high resolution" do a very good job, the cheaper, used, 10 year old junk did a better job. So, I ordered a high end Nuvico/Sony CCD Super Had etc etc and a Sony Dynaview to ease curiosity. The "VizionCam-RX's I have are very impressive as they see very well with absolutely no lighting or IR at night. On 8x they will identify even a dark colored vehicle at midnight with just the light reflection of a white 40' trailer 100' feet away. The Nuvico (NVCC-SPDIN-A) cam with a Fujinon FVL298AI-DN lense is absolutely awesome. It sees racoons at 2am in total darkness and a car driving through renders occupants identifiable as window glare is totally eliminated. The Sony is aimed at the exit and if I DO NOT turn lights on and leave the front motion light OFF it gives me readable license plates at 60'. Even in the dark. I guess the reflective is moot at less than a 30 degree angle in natural light, or, no light. I appreciate whatever help I was given but I guess in the long run hands on is the best teacher as usual. Actually I'm kinda surprised that absolutely no recommendatios were given as to camera specs to guide by.