32ch install nightmare

[naiefelyemeni 0]

hi guys, im installing a 32ch of rhte first time, and using cat5 with passive baluns on a AHD system for the first time.. and what a mess.. i wish i had of stuck with coax..

ok i have all 32 cables coming into the room together and split in half.. and then split the video twisted pairs from the power video pairs.. what a mess...

 

im using 2 16ch 10a supply boxes..

which i believe are way under powered for 16 AHD cameras with 24-32 irs?

 

im getting lines in many of them and wavy rolling pictures.. not on all but on most.. im thinkg ground loop becuase of all those wires and this whole setup being all within feet of each other?

 

im going crazy here.. some cameras cause all the otjhers to go crazy.. even if i put them in a seperate wall wart ? ill upload pictures soon..

 

oh yeah here is how i wired them

 

blue pos vid

blue/white neg video

green pair and brown pair for neg power

orange pair for pos power..

 

does using different styles of baluns on each end cause any problems? i crakced open both types and they have the same coils in them " simonsen123 "344e-150mh "

 

oh yeah some runs are up to 175-200ft..

[Boogieman 1]

viewtopic.php?t=47966

[naiefelyemeni 0]

hi guys, im installing a 32ch of rhte first time, and using cat5 with passive baluns on a AHD system for the first time.. and what a mess.. i wish i had of stuck with coax..

ok i have all 32 cables coming into the room together and split in half.. and then split the video twisted pairs from the power video pairs.. what a mess...

 

im using 2 16ch 10a supply boxes..

which i believe are way under powered for 16 AHD cameras with 24-32 irs?

 

im getting lines in many of them and wavy rolling pictures.. not on all but on most.. im thinkg ground loop becuase of all those wires and this whole setup being all within feet of each other?

 

im going crazy here.. some cameras cause all the otjhers to go crazy.. even if i put them in a seperate wall wart ? ill upload pictures soon..

 

oh yeah here is how i wired them

 

blue pos vid

blue/white neg video

green pair and brown pair for neg power

orange pair for pos power..

 

does using different styles of baluns on each end cause any problems? i crakced open both types and they have the same coils in them " simonsen123 "344e-150mh "

 

oh yeah some runs are up to 175-200ft..

[naiefelyemeni 0]

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=47966

I've done what they recommend but still have thes issues. Any help would be appreciated buddy..

[Boogieman 1]

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=47966

I've done what they recommend but still have thes issues. Any help would be appreciated buddy..

There are way to many variables...

Did you buy quality baluns? Did you replace the junk cable?

Have you tested the cameras with the DVR on a short run?

Are your ethernet runs direct from the dvr to the camera or did you punch it down somewhere or use a coupler? Are your connections good?

[naiefelyemeni 0]

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=47966

I've done what they recommend but still have thes issues. Any help would be appreciated buddy..

There are way to many variables...

Did you buy quality baluns? Did you replace the junk cable?

Have you tested the cameras with the DVR on a short run?

Are your ethernet runs direct from the dvr to the camera or did you punch it down somewhere or use a coupler? Are your connections good?

 

I tested 2 cameras on separate 200ft wires with same baluns to the dvr at my shop and thu we're clear pictures..

So the baluns and cables are good.. I'm thinking it's the boxes or

Is it becuase all those cables bunched up together? That's 4 pairs of 16 cables near each supply box .. Will all thos wires cause

Interference , I mean how

Else am I supposed to connect to dvr and ps box unless all are

Within feet of

Each other ? And all runs are are direct from dvr/box to cameras

[ian_flux 0]

Don't know if you're still looking for an answer...

 

Firstly, have you tested the volts on the problem cameras? Don't forget, it was suggested that you split the last pair you had, across both Positive and Negative, which could correct the problem if it was just down to volts drop.

 

Other than that, I'm unsure of the effect of all those CCA cables running together when they're not just carrying IP data.

 

I would suggest that to eliminate interference, you would have to disconnect every single run apart from one you are troubleshooting, not just from the DVR, but also power, and also test the possibility of disconnecting all those baluns, and even try grounding all unused cores while testing.

 

If the signal on a bad channel is better now, you will need to add components gradually to see if a particular item, or combination of items causes it to worsen. It could be general interference, meaning you will have to create more space for the cables or work on grounding, or look at the effect of those baluns on the cable. It could be the power supply is maxed out, etc, etc.

 

If the signal doesn't improve on the channel when it is the only one connected, test a good pair and balun of a nearby good camera if possible, by patching from good to bad. If you have bought cheaper products as you earlier suggested, a problem can be quality control, so some items are defective on arrival.

 

Also, did you do the basic maths with power supply vs cameras requirements?

[naiefelyemeni 0]

Yes that's what I'll do split the pairs , how about if I did 4 for the pos and 2 for negative? Or split is best? And also the ps boxes have no ground on cable that plugs into the wall.. But the boxes and are

Grounded inside the box though?

[ian_flux 0]

Yes, if I felt I needed more than two cores for power, then I would share the other pair across the -/+

 

I would just take it a step at a time.

 

Voltage at problem cameras OK?

No - Volt drop due to distance/poor cable/bad terminations?

No - Supply not large enough for amount of cameras?

 

Baluns, at both ends of bad cameras swapped for 'good' ones?

Termination checked? (it is common practice to score cores of cable when stripping them)

 

Could be interference?

-> disconnect as much as possible while testing

-> ground other cores, disconnect other baluns while testing

 

In other words, make it as basic as you can and go through it methodically, which is why I suggest just seeing what a single camera, being powered, and providing a signal through a single pair of baluns looks like. Also, are your problem cameras the furthest away, and have you looked for a source of interference near those particular cameras?

 

The whole DC ground, real (earth) ground issues can be tricky, but thankfully I've not had to overcome them yet.

[naiefelyemeni 0]

Yes, if I felt I needed more than two cores for power, then I would share the other pair across the -/+

 

I would just take it a step at a time.

 

Voltage at problem cameras OK?

No - Volt drop due to distance/poor cable/bad terminations?

No - Supply not large enough for amount of cameras?

 

Baluns, at both ends of bad cameras swapped for 'good' ones?

Termination checked? (it is common practice to score cores of cable when stripping them)

 

Could be interference?

-> disconnect as much as possible while testing

-> ground other cores, disconnect other baluns while testing

 

In other words, make it as basic as you can and go through it methodically, which is why I suggest just seeing what a single camera, being powered, and providing a signal through a single pair of baluns looks like. Also, are your problem cameras the furthest away, and have you looked for a source of interference near those particular cameras?

 

The whole DC ground, real (earth) ground issues can be tricky, but thankfully I've not had to overcome them yet.

 

 

Thanks will go today or

Tomorrow to job site and test voltage at ends.. I'm pretty sure it's a voltage drop according to the Voltage drop calculator.. Will respond with the results ASAP ..

[whoslooking 0]

The images are all over the place due to ground balance, the simple way to fix this is to ground the DVR to the power supply feeding the camera's.

 

There is an Earth point on the rear of the nvr just connect that to -over

And all will be clear.

 

Next time use IP equipment, or rj45 passive splitters to keep things tidy, no one likes a messy install.

[ian_flux 0]

The images are all over the place due to ground balance, the simple way to fix this is to ground the DVR to the power supply feeding the camera's.

 

There is an Earth point on the rear of the nvr just connect that to -over

And all will be clear.

 

Next time use IP equipment, or rj45 passive splitters to keep things tidy, no one likes a messy install.

If that cures the problem, then respect to you and I will have learnt something. But my understanding is that it is often the interconnection of grounds of two pieces of equipment via an unintended route that causes a ground loop in the first place.

 

In theory, connecting both grounds together sounds like a good idea, but generally speaking, if you're talking about a real earth terminal on back of DVR, the DC ground is not the same as the AC ground, if you mean a DC ground terminal, then two DC supply grounds shouldn't really be connected.

 

The output from DC supplies are normally intended to be floating, if the DC output should be grounded (to AC ground (Earth)) then this will be done by design, in the power supply.

[naiefelyemeni 0]

The images are all over the place due to ground balance, the simple way to fix this is to ground the DVR to the power supply feeding the camera's.

 

There is an Earth point on the rear of the nvr just connect that to -over

And all will be clear.

 

Next time use IP equipment, or rj45 passive splitters to keep things tidy, no one likes a messy install.

 

 

But the power supply boxes don't have a ground on the

Plug end? Do I still ground to the metal box and try?

[ian_flux 0]

But the power supply boxes don't have a ground on the

Plug end? Do I still ground to the metal box and try?

Did you do the basics, as discussed - isolating and working on only one camera at a time?

 

When you're confused by something, the worst thing to do is jump from one thing to another without method. It very rarely solves the problem.

[naiefelyemeni 0]

But the power supply boxes don't have a ground on the

Plug end? Do I still ground to the metal box and try?

Did you do the basics, as discussed - isolating and working on only one camera at a time?

 

When you're confused by something, the worst thing to do is jump from one thing to another without method. It very rarely solves the problem.[/q

 

i did try one by one, but there are so many cameras that cause issues with other cameras.. Now i have like 9 cameras separate box , 6 cameras seperate box , 3 cameras separate box , 3 cameras seperate adapter and 2 and 2 seprate adapters and 1 on a adapter on its own... if i mix any of these with any of the others they'll mess up each other.. so i gave up and just bought separate power supplies 2A for only $3 and just ill hook half of them up to individual adapters.. and be done lol .. driving me nuts..

[ian_flux 0]

i did try one by one, but there are so many cameras that cause issues with other cameras.. Now i have like 9 cameras separate box , 6 cameras seperate box , 3 cameras separate box , 3 cameras seperate adapter and 2 and 2 seprate adapters and 1 on a adapter on its own... if i mix any of these with any of the others they'll mess up each other.. so i gave up and just bought separate power supplies 2A for only $3 and just ill hook half of them up to individual adapters.. and be done lol .. driving me nuts..

So you think its a power supply problem? Is that because when others were powered down, your problem cameras looked better? Did you even check volt drop? Have you tested a 'bad' camera separately as Boogieman suggested? Did you swap out baluns on a 'bad' camera?

 

I hope your idea helps you but it sounds crazy to me to just swap out PSUs with no evidence of the problem in the first place.

 

I'll ask one other question just out of curiosity: How do all your cables run out of the DVR room and to where they start to split off? Are they on a cable tray, or tacked next to each other on the wall, or are they bundled up and tied together?

 

If your new PSUs don't fix it, you will have to look at interference - as has been suggested, cheap CCA, with cheap baluns could cause problems amongst a bundle of cables running very close together.

 

And if you really think it's down to a ground loop problem, make sure only the cameras have a negative from the PSU, don't attempt to interconnect any other earths, grounds unless it is specifically required. Most ground loop problems are solved by isolation. I'm only saying this because you said some of your boxes were grounded, and I'm not sure what you meant by that.

[naiefelyemeni 0]

i did try one by one, but there are so many cameras that cause issues with other cameras.. Now i have like 9 cameras separate box , 6 cameras seperate box , 3 cameras separate box , 3 cameras seperate adapter and 2 and 2 seprate adapters and 1 on a adapter on its own... if i mix any of these with any of the others they'll mess up each other.. so i gave up and just bought separate power supplies 2A for only $3 and just ill hook half of them up to individual adapters.. and be done lol .. driving me nuts..

So you think its a power supply problem? Is that because when others were powered down, your problem cameras looked better? Did you even check volt drop? Have you tested a 'bad' camera separately as Boogieman suggested? Did you swap out baluns on a 'bad' camera?

 

I hope your idea helps you but it sounds crazy to me to just swap out PSUs with no evidence of the problem in the first place.

 

I'll ask one other question just out of curiosity: How do all your cables run out of the DVR room and to where they start to split off? Are they on a cable tray, or tacked next to each other on the wall, or are they bundled up and tied together?

 

If your new PSUs don't fix it, you will have to look at interference - as has been suggested, cheap CCA, with cheap baluns could cause problems amongst a bundle of cables running very close together.

 

And if you really think it's down to a ground loop problem, make sure only the cameras have a negative from the PSU, don't attempt to interconnect any other earths, grounds unless it is specifically required. Most ground loop problems are solved by isolation. I'm only saying this because you said some of your boxes were grounded, and I'm not sure what you meant by that.

 

 

They are all running into the room together and tied together then split in hlaf 16 to one dvr and 16 to the other.. if i take off positive and leave negative on almost all of them the cameras still stay on.. i havent went back to the job site and will try grouding the dvr to the psu box..

[ian_flux 0]

if i take off positive and leave negative on almost all of them the cameras still stay on..

This is getting confusing. I'm telling you to make sure the only negative that supplies the cameras is that from the power supply that feeds them. I'm trying to make sure you are not accidentally interconnecting negatives, earths and grounds that shouldn't be.

 

That statement sounds the wrong way round to me and if you'd have said you removed the negative and the cameras still worked then I'd say that probably proves a ground loop via the DVR earth. In other words the shield/screen out of the DVR is interconnected with your camera power supplies somewhere. I have no idea how they would be getting a positive voltage. Are the power supplies DC out or AC?

 

I think you need to have an understanding of what is happening in your system. Do you have any previous experience with electronics or basic electrical principles?

[tomcctv 190]

Hi. This is a problem with cheap cameras were either camera cable or inside the camera both power neutral and video neutral are connected together.

[naiefelyemeni 0]

if i take off positive and leave negative on almost all of them the cameras still stay on..

This is getting confusing. I'm telling you to make sure the only negative that supplies the cameras is that from the power supply that feeds them. I'm trying to make sure you are not accidentally interconnecting negatives, earths and grounds that shouldn't be.

 

That statement sounds the wrong way round to me and if you'd have said you removed the negative and the cameras still worked then I'd say that probably proves a ground loop via the DVR earth. In other words the shield/screen out of the DVR is interconnected with your camera power supplies somewhere. I have no idea how they would be getting a positive voltage. Are the power supplies DC out or AC?

 

I think you need to have an understanding of what is happening in your system. Do you have any previous experience with electronics or basic electrical principles?

 

 

i have installed about 20 stores already using coax , this is the first install using cat5e and baluns.. and i have this crazy issue. what i meant is if i remove the positive, the camera still stays on lol.. meaybe its beacuse there cheap like tom said.. ANd i dont think its voltage drop because i hook up the cameras that have issues , about 15 , seperately and they work fine,, i even conneected a far run abiut 175ft using only a 500mah adapter and its picture was perfect, even at night.. so i can rule out voltage drop, its probably interference i guess? i never had this issue ever before.. ill never use cat5e again, well at least not the cheap CCA kind lol ..

[tomcctv 190]

Can you post a pic of your baluns

[naiefelyemeni 0]

Can you post a pic of your baluns

 

 

i dont think its the baluns, because half of the system works fine.

[tomcctv 190]

Can you post a pic of your baluns

 

 

i dont think its the baluns, because half of the system works fine.

 

 

Well we don't know what type you used or if they are baluns

[naiefelyemeni 0]

Can you post a pic of your baluns

 

 

i dont think its the baluns, because half of the system works fine.

 

 

Well we don't know what type you used or if they are baluns

 

100% not balun issue because if i give the prone cameras a seperate power supply picture is clear.. its probably ground issue, ill try grounding the dvr to the power supplies and hopefully that fixes the issue because i dont want to use 15 different power supplies for this install lol to much money just down the drain..

[tomcctv 190]

Which is why I asked for a link to your baluns ..... There are God and bad baluns and ....... Baluns that are sold as baluns but are not

 

How have you run the power ?

 

How have you split video and power

 

It can be a long guessing game if you don't want to answer questions