Advice on the right outdoor camera

[dtdoak 0]

I'm very new to CCTV and need some advice.

 

I'm in the process of analyzing what I need to build a simple residential surveillance system. I already purchased the GeoVision GV-800, which seems work great. I need advice on purchasing 3 cameras. I already purchased a cheap camera, which I’m returning so I need some help. Here are my requirements for 3 outdoor cameras.

 

1- Budget per camera $200-350.

2- All cameras need to be small and somewhat inconspicuous, meaning dark shell casing. Like the look of dome armor cameras since they blend-in with the outside of my home and are small.

3- All cameras must be able to function down to 10F.

4- All cameras must be able to show a decent image in total darkness.

5- One camera must be able to see in darkness 50-70 feet.

6- Two cameras must be able to see in darkness 20-30 feet.

7- One camera has a run of about 400-450 feet. Should I use cat5e with baluns or rg6 coax?

8- The other two cameras have a run of about 75-125 feet.

 

Any help is tremendously appreciated.

[kg6mti 0]

I have a very similar setup and my requirements were very close to yours. I am also running a Geovision GV-800 card. The camera's that used are a mix of Mace CAM53CIR and CAM68CIR. The CAM53CIR is a bullet type camera that is fairly small and provides a great picture night and day. The night time distance of the IR's on the CAM53CIR camera is good but best for short distances (20 - 30ft). I installed the CAM68CIR for a very large area I have in the back of the house. The IR illumination on the CAM68CIR is really great and very bright (40 - 60+ ft). To back the cameras up that are in the back of the house I also installed security lights that are motion activated. The way the camera's can do their job in total darkness but should something trigger the motion of the security lights the cameras get an even better shot of the incident.

 

The CAM53CIR can be found on http://www.Amazon.com for $119 US. I bought my CAM68CIR through a merchant on Amazon as well but I can find any listed there today. I paid $232 US for mine about a week and a half ago.

 

Neither of these camera's meet your requirement of housing color but I would suspect that you could camouflage them yourself by painting the housings. I would just be really careful not to mess with the lens areas when you are painting them.

 

As for the CAT5 I would stick with RG59 instead of the RG6 unless you already have a supply of the RG6. The RG6 is a little tougher to work with and cost a little more. I looked at the CAT5 option but with the cost of good quality baluns, the cable and ends it was going to cost far more that the RG59. Just make certain that you use a good quality cable for both the coax and the power. The coax should be 95% copper shield. Don't bother buying any of the cheap coax that you can find at places like Home Depot it is designed for cable TV and satellite dish type installations. I did however find a really good price on a 500ft spool of single pair 18ga security wire at Home Depot when I did my installation. Use good quality coax ends as well. The twist on connectors are ok for a temporary install but I would really recommend that you put out the extra money for good quality compression fittings but you will need to buy or borrow a compression tool to install them.

[dtdoak 0]

Thanks for the good information.

 

I was just looking at some of the Mace cameras. I realize they are a cheaper brand, but for my purposes they just might do the job. The CAM53CIR size is small 3x2.1 inches, which is nice. I was also considering the CAM74CIR or CAM66CIR, which appear to have a lot of IR LED's and audio too.

 

Can you make any manual adjustments to the Mace cameras? Was just wondering, since the camera I'm returning is not working in daylight and another person on this message board talked about adjusting the luminance.

 

One of my other concerns is temperature. It looks like Mace cameras do not have heaters in them and this might be a problem below 10F. Sometime the temp does fall to zero, but not very often. Even 10F is rare. Here's a link to two other cameras I'm considering; both have a heater installed in the casing, but I'm not sure since they're not a brand name. It's so confusing with all these different imports, wish it was an easy decision.

 

[link removed by mod]

 

One of the good things I have going for me is that I have AC at the end of my driveway, so I do not have to worry about supplying 12vdc for a long run. I wasn't sure if coax rg59/rg6 would be a problem with a run of 400 feet or so, that's why I was thinking about cat5e with baluns. I'm still not sure about using baluns. I understand NVT are real good, but expensive.

 

Anyhow, thanks for your input. Looks like we're both trying to accomplish the same thing without spending too much. I'll respond with whatever decision I make, hopefully shortly.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Guest

[kg6mti 0]

None of the lengths that you mention for your cable are anywhere near the maximum length for RG59 or RG6 coax cable.

 

I had a problem with condensation on the lens of one camera when I first installed my system. The problem was that the camera faced west and the ocean. The combination of cold and damp air from the ocean and fog the image would get distorted from the mist. That was the camera that I replaced with the CAM68CIR. The CAM68CIR has the lens and the IR's mounted separately to protect against the exact problem I had. After I switched the camera the problem disappeared. I did look at camera's with heated housing and another user here on the forum did tell me that the heated housing would solve my issue with condensation but the CAM68CIR seems to have provided a good solution for about $100 US less.

 

My camera's are mounted at my home on the Northern California coast. It does not get down to 0 Fahrenheit but it did snow a couple of weeks ago which is not normal but it was cold and wet. The camera's have done very well so far. Someone from this forum recommended the Mace camera's to me. I know that they are not the most expensive camera I could get. I am so far very pleased with the quality of the camera's and their performance. I was looking for a good quality camera that was reasonably prices and the Mace camera's seem to have filled the requirement.

[dtdoak 0]

Another concern I have is running coax or cat5e underground. I realize both are available in direct burial cable. The cost is a lot higher. Not sure which is better to run underground 400 feet. Has any one run cable underground to a camera?

 

Also, is there a way to calculate the maximum distance audio can be run from camera using various awg 2 wire cable? Not sure if audio could go this distance (400 feet) without a lot of loss. Any feedback appreciated?

[jackiejr 0]

I have taken the time to read your posts carefully and I have a few ideas for you and some food for thought.

 

400 ft on RG59U is perfectly fine, however wether you run RG59U or Cat 5 outside if you do not want to spend the money for direct burial do yourself a favor and run the wire in conduit. Another idea would be to run it in the same tubing that sprinkler companies use to run water from sprinkler head to sprinkler head, it costs a lot less.

 

Running the video over Cat 5 is fine however you will need 2 video baluns per camera and good pair of surge protected video baluns will cost around $20 each. If you want to save money go with RG59U siamese with the 18/2.

 

Audio runs should always have shielded cable I would recommened 22 Gauge Shielded with the drain wire for a quality audio sound.

 

Lastly I have checked out the cameras you have been looking at and the companies you have decided to go with. Do yourself a favor and try and stay away from companies that carry None name brand cameras, especially since they are importing cartons of these cameras and you have no idea the actual specs or where they are coming from. Also it is quite possible that the camera you order today will no longer exsist next month. Not a good sign.

 

Stick with a company that carries name brand products. Even some of the none well known companies such as Nuvico, Everfocus, Kt & C, all make nice products have REAL warranties and the specs on the cameras have been tested and are prorerly documented with PDFS. By no means am i trying to scare you but places like cctv imports and mace do not make the cameras nor do they have genuine PDF's on their cameras, so the specs are up for debate.

 

Good luck with your system and I will surely assist you if need more help. Thank you and Happy Holidays.

[jackiejr 0]

One more thing--

 

It is always better to run 24VAC for your cameras, reasons are below.

 

Cleaner power

 

Less likely to be interfered.

 

A camera running on 24VAc will require less Amps.

 

If you use Cat 5 you will have to double up on the pair if the current is strong and you run 24VAC.

 

For the temprature issue, most name brand cameras will work in low tempratures they are calculated in Celsius, normally 10 degrees Farenheit is not that big of deal and most well made cameras will withstand that degree without a need for a heater.

[rory 0]

For cameras also check out Provideo (Speco), they have some more medium range cameras (inbetween budget and high end) at decent prices and good quality hardware.

 

20-30 feet you should be able to make it with a decent IR bullet. The 50-70' you would need external IR to provide a "decent" image in pitch dark, as well as a "decent" camera. No good a bunch of IR and the camera wont produce. If you search the forum you will no doubt see the Extreme CCTV posts but thats way over your budget.

 

Anyway, dont expect to see a whole lot in pitch dark with any budget cameras to start with. I would always suggest installing Lighting before IR, and only use IR if you have the money to do it right. Use BW Bullets preferably Exview, in lowest light areas, and then you can always add IR external if needed. Use color cameras in the areas that have light. A Decent Day Night camera will be way over your budget. I Say decent as thats what you mentioned. Otherwise you could get away with an image of some kind by using the cheaper budget cameras .. the color/IR cameras are not Day Night cameras though so be forwarned, they are simply Color cameras that kill the Chroma to make a BW mode and pick up "some" IR hence they are not very sensetive at all, and also they dont have IR cut Filters (search) so you end up with washed out colors in the day time when there is sunlight.

 

 

Rory

[dtdoak 0]

Thanks for the input... very, very helpful.

 

I'm still concerned about running audio 400 feet or so. Will the siamese coax handle that distance for audio? I do have AC power very close (50 feet) from each of the cameras I'll installed, so I'll probably use 12VDC. I have also been having a problem finding true cctv coax (copper core, with 95% copper braid).

 

Also, I was thinking about a camera from, dare I say it, www.cctvimports.com The camera I was interesting in is model 9100EX, which can be found at their website. It's also being sold by www.advanced-cctv.com Would you recommend an alternative camera solution other than the 9100EX in the same price range if you think not to go with this camera? I have spoken with someone from www.advanced-cctv.com and they are backing their products and seem very easy to work with. Still not sure what to do.

 

Thanks for everyone's help. This is a great forum! Glad I found it.

[rory 0]

It has decent specs, though I would ignore the 120' IR spec ..

You need a large IR Bulb to perform that kind of IR Light .. but the Exview is Key .. i dont think it is a true day night camera though, like the Provideo's have .. but those cost more. Over all seems like a decent choice for a home and the price isnt a killer.

 

I cant vouch for the stores selling them or the reliability though .. if it were a provideo I could pretty much say those last for ever .. (certain models)

[jackiejr 0]

Again for audio use

 

Audio runs should always have shielded cable I would recommened 22 Gauge Shielded with drain wire.

 

You might have an issue with th distance so worst case scenario you buy an audio amplifier which can be somewhat inexpensive.

 

 

On a side note, Speco make some nice cameras, however part numbers constantly change and items become dicountinued very quickly leaving the fact open that once they run out of those cameras from the container over seas they find a new camera from another manufacture to sell.

 

A surveillance system wether a cheap or expensive one should be carefully thought through, the less you spend the more quality you jeopardize, plain and simple.

 

Look dont be fooled by who ever tells you they have the best camera on the market or by a company that sells one brand, because guess what? That one brand that they sell that they claim they manufacture they are going to push it like its the second coming.

 

Ask the following questions:

 

Whats the warranty?

 

Do You have a genuine spec sheet?

 

What is the life span on the IR Leds?

 

How long has the product been on the market?

 

As rory said before improving the lighting is best in any low light condition. Super EX wave cameras are good, however the best performance you are going to get out of that chip is on a true Sony camera made by Sony.

[rory 0]

you're right about speco to a degree, they arent as bad as other lower level OEMs though and they have had some products now for several years under the same model and same specs .. but i experienced a switch up on one of their models before, a camera that used to be an Exview, when we ordered 20, they werent exview anymore .. ;-(

 

Really only the big brands like GE, Bosch, etc can afford to keep models the same throughout, but even those end up getting bought out every few years by some other large conglomerate ..

 

Basically the difference between Say Provideo and these other guys is, you can buy Provideo from any distributor and they almost always will have them in stock .. to the client its almost like buying a GE or Bosch .. oh yeah and the warranty ..

 

No name isnt a bad thing though, just have to be sure who you are buying it from, that they know their stuff, and they keep a good stock so you dont hage to wait 3 months for a replacement camera from asia .. there's alot of really good no name cameras coming out of S. Korea now.

 

 

Back to the Camera, specs are pretty good, check if it is a True Day Night with a Mech IR Cut Filter. If not still, its less than other ones that have the Mech IR Cut Filter so you may like it for your Home. Expect a narrow Spot IR beam from it though, maybe around 40-50' distance if your lucky, and that all depends on where it is installed and whether it has anything to reflect the IR off.

 

Rory

[Metal Shaper Man 0]

I have a verity of the Speco HEAT cameras and they work pretty well at night with reasonable lighting. They also give a good picture during the day.

 

Most important, when I did have a concern or a problem with a camera, Speco backed the product. They promply replaced a HT-7815DNV I had a problem with from day one. They also tested some 870's I sent back and replace the power supplies. Anyway, all the Speco HEAT cameras I purchased are still working just like the day I bought them.

 

In some ways I think they were worth the extra few dollars over some of the other mid grad cameras because, I didn't have to worry about who was going to cover the warrenty.

[dtdoak 0]

I really like the HT-7815DNV, except for the price. $500 is too steep for 3 cameras. Can anyone recommend a camera with good specs that is from a reputable company? I'm still gravitating to the 9100EX, which is in my price range of $200-350. When it comes right down to it, Would it be a good idea to have a separate/dedicated IR light; say one with 30 poweful LED's. Any other ideas appreciated.

 

Thinking of coax RG59, I liked the idea of using the sprinkler system tubing approach for outdoor work. Would anyone have an idea what a good price for 500 feet of CCTV RG59? I’ve been so worried about the camera that I have not really looked into coax. It's good to hear RG59 will work at 500 feet; originally I was thinking RG6 or cat5e.

 

Thanks for again for everyone's valuable input.

[rory 0]

Thats possibly the same camera ...

 

Questions For Each Camera:

 

-How is the lighting or what lighting is there at night

-What are the Distances and Widths for each camera you need to see

-As above, what distance do you need to see if no light exists

-Can you add lighting, if even Motion Lights?

-Do you mind just a BW camera for any of the cameras?

-As for the image quality, are you looking for a very good image day and night, or adequate?

[dtdoak 0]

Does anyone know if I run 12VDC to a camera 500 feet away using 18/2 if the voltage drop would be too great for the camera to work effectively, especially when IR LED's are on. I'm concerned that 12 volts might end up being something like 9 volts at the camera with a run of this length. I'm sure there is some algorithm which calculates voltage drop based on length and wire used.

 

If it works out that 18/2 can go the distance, I'll go with rg59 siamese 18/2 and use 1/2" sprinkler tubing for the conduit, since I have to bury about 250 feet or so. I found a place where I can buy 500 feet of tubing for around $50, which is still cheaper than buying direct burial cable.

 

Thanks for the help.

[dtdoak 0]

If anyone is interested, I found a website that calculates the voltage drop.

 

You can check it out at: http://www.securalarm.com/SAS/Calculator.htm

 

I'd like to know the algorithm to do this calculation.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[Metal Shaper Man 0]

http://www.altronix.com/index.php?pid=4&note=1

 

http://www.altronix.com/index.php?pid=4&note=4

 

I think this is what you're looking for?

[rory 0]

If anyone is interested, I found a website that calculates the voltage drop.

 

You can check it out at: http://www.securalarm.com/SAS/Calculator.htm

 

I'd like to know the algorithm to do this calculation.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

Use View Source, its in the Javascript.

 

Also, which IR camera are you talking about?

[dtdoak 0]

Right now I'm probably going with the 9100EX, which is similar to the Speco HT-7815DNV.

 

I already have a switching power supply from Samlex, which puts out 13.8VDC 23amps. What's nice about this power supply is it only draws on what the demand is. I use this for ameteur radio equipment. Here's a site with the specs, if anyone is interested.

 

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamps/3747.html