pro guidelines for deciding what you need (beyond hardware)

[twice_shy 0]

Hello, been kind of lull for awhile because my original situation for joining changed suddenly and my needs got thus postponed. Coming back to things now hoping to resume.

 

 

I'm trying to find some good baseline texts for designing up total security systems from scratch. By which I mean not the hardware (that's the last part, ie 16 or 32 channels of DVR in a given resolution, 4 terabytes of h264 compressed video for X hours of footage, yadda yadda yadda) but what a security professional would look at regarding a high end personal or business property in the first place to achieve the end goals - which is basically footage good enough to stand up in a court of law to identify people and criminal actions if someone needs to prosecute.

 

An example of a "factoid" I picked up somewhere (don't remember where) is that i'll want 40 pixels of resolution minimum to identify a face. Therefore if I want to try and identify faces at a given distance across a given width of area (say anyone entering through a doublewide garage door, or anyone standing at the end of a property scoping things out for a future crime) it's not hard to figure out wanting so many HD cameras, at what field of view, to try and capture that footage for later identification.

 

I'm looking for all the other pro factoids besides 40 pixels of resolution for a face though. Is there a cctv security bible on fairly high security, say to the level suitable for a casino or well heeled jewelry store? (ie well beyond the common shopkeeper who wants a 4 channel DVR and can't even identify the blurry washed out faces he captures)

 

A professional would probably (have to) be consulted at some point later in the process, this is more to be able to scanread, get some guidelines, get enough knowledge to know yourself whether youre dealing with someone who knows what they are talking about (if you have zero competence, you cant easily judge people far more competent than you) to avoid being either oversold or undersold a system. Something that goes through overviews of fairly basic up to very high security (even if you would not implement very high security, just out of curiosity ie "this exists, but its probably beyond your needs without a bank vault" kind of things) would help me orient myself in terms of whats possible, what kind of estimates I should expect to hear, and what kind of price ranges I should expect them to cost. Any suggestions for reference textbooks and guides would be helpful...

 

 

I'm well aware that even the best security systems end up creating mountains of footage to sift through looking for things relevant. However I consider this more of a future AI upgrade problem (as there are all sorts of automatic facial recognition software and other things coming onto the market soon), I am mostly wanting to have a good idea of the physical wiring, physical camera locations, special lighting or even architechtural features which might assist the cameras like making people enter through a well lit narrow passageway allowing high resolution imaging of anyone entering, and similar. At the end of the day the physical system still comes down to cameras of a given resolution, wiring, maybe lighting, and storing the footage, and i'm trying to just sort out that problem really competently first. The tech for that might change from six VGA cameras covering an area to two HD cameras to one beyond HD camera, but the raw specs that a security engineer would want drive those decisions and that is what I want to 'know what i should want to know' first.

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

PS - good references 'beyond cctv' on general are fine too, because i'm aware the basic architechture of a place can be designed or optimized for security before you even add the cameras. I'm looking for high security bibles in general including and beyond the CCTV aspects.

[RonR 0]

First thing, cameras are cheap, and so is recording space.

 

Buildings, offices, and parking lots all have choke points, entrances and exits.

 

Have cameras that cover general areas, but have other cameras just on doorways, and just on Windshield/license plate as they enter and exit.

 

General area can show you where someone goes but even high res loses sharpness when you zoom in on recording, and "kinda looks like Bob Smith" is much different than "IS Bob Smith"

 

In other words, don't try to do it all with 1 camera in an area, results will be under expectations, clients will get that, and the cost of a few more cameras is minimal in overall cost.

 

There are PTZ cameras and software(autotracking) now that will do autonomous motion detect and zoom, these could be used to detect and record passers-by that are "casing the joint", and are good in Parking lots as well, for cars and pedestrians, obviously not meant for busy times in areas.

 

Google: auto tracking ptz security cameras

 

 

People that break-in will already know there is video surveillance and will cover their faces, so moot point no matter what the resolution.

Good defensive locks and alarm system is best bet for that situation.

 

 

As a side story, a doorway camera couldn't be put in front of the door, only off to the side, so only a side view of people entering.

There was a door sensor on that door(pre-motion detection)

Installer added a small red light next to the camera.

It flashed 3 or 4 times after door was opened.

People would see it out of the corner of their eye...........yup, and turned their head to look at what it was, full face view.

Wasn't me but always remembered that clever design solution

[twice_shy 0]

Thank you for the suggestions, and yes that is all good advice, especially the bit about small flashing lights to get people to look straight at a camera. Now i'd just like to find books full of that kind of security advice!

 

I'm aware the cameras and recording space is cheap, certainly cheaper than an on-site guard, they just result in mountains of footage. However by the time the system is put together (a few years off, this is just future planning because i'm a partner in a number of different attempted businesses which will eventually have thing worth protecting, and one of my jobs is to reduce some of the "expert help" needed for each project down to a minimum by learning a bit about that field and doing some of the groundwork) i'm assuming the facial recognition software or "follow this person through the store" should be commercially available.

 

One of the business possibilities would involve a higher value rural site that insofar as possible we would want to protect from the normal sequence of someone randomly driving by, "the eyes desire", they case the joint a bit later, then eventually show up with some guys or try to steal construction material or whatever. It occurs to me to try and design some of the protective fencing or backdrops with the idea that I should have a perimeter nobody should be inside, so I can then motion flag everything instead of just aiming it over a field where anyone behind chain link not only sees things they want to take but would have the cameras going nonstop. Of course if anyone pops their head over the edge of the fence that would be nice to have in high res with a time code of 'anomalies above the fence'/who is looking and why.

 

 

Of course this straddles into seeking general good security texts (beyond cctv) as well in the first place, just guidelines for intelligent building design or property layout (whatever 'intelligent' qualifies) or at least understanding things like how a thief or criminal/ vandal/ employee stalker sees a building or residential house, and trying to reverse engineer things to make a hard target to prevent trouble in the first place. The problem is that i'm not a thief or criminal so i'm not quite sure how they think, I just figure there must be plenty of things that I dont know, and dont even know the things that I dont know or what they could be. Beyond "at least 40 pixels for a face, and make sure it's lit and facing a camera at some point" I figure there must be alot more knowledge justifying the steep prices of many security professional shops want to put on their five figure installed systems when a couple off the shelf DVR systems would have the same number of cameras and recording space.

[tomcctv 190]

Thank you for the suggestions, and yes that is all good advice, especially the bit about small flashing lights to get people to look straight at a camera. Now i'd just like to find books full of that kind of security advice!

 

Hi the only way that will work is if you put signs around the property saying .....intruders please ring door bell first.

 

 

I figure there must be alot more knowledge justifying the steep prices of many security professional shops want to put on their five figure installed systems when a couple off the shelf DVR systems would have the same number of cameras and recording space.

 

 

It's the off the shelf DVRs that some installers over price on ...

They buy from Costco or SAMs and to make money they double the cost plus install .......and that is the steep price system. And the only do one type of recorder and one type of camera.

 

A good installer ..... NOT OVER PRICED ONE . but one that knows many makes and models ... Because every install is different

 

But one thing your not going to find in any book or get a pro installer to give you is knowledge

[jeromephone 6]

right camera for the right location. look at video from various brands in various conditions and then make a choice. Auto tracking PTZ ? my experience with PTZ generally has been to have a couple of cameras cover a given area as the PTZ will be in the wrong position when needed. Has anyone had a auto tracking camera that worked as it was supposed to and if so what brand?

[RonR 0]

"Mountains of video" ?

 

You know that the newer systems/recorders use Motion detection software, and you set either the whole screen or just 1 portion of the screen to be the motion trigger.

So you have a camera pointed at a glass door and windows that hundreds of people walk by every day, but it only records when door handle moves, for example, so only when someone enters or exits that door.

 

And you can set pre and post time on that motion, if you set 5 second pre-record time then recorder always records that camera in a 5 second loop, when motion is detected then it doesn't record over that 5 seconds, it keeps it and continues recording until that motion detection is over, and then records what ever post time you want, i.e. 5 seconds

So when you watch the play back you see some one walking over and opening the door then exiting or entering.

 

And if you are recording full time then newer software has "watch here" for playback, so you can select an area of the screen then hit fast forward and it will stop if anything changes in the area you selected.

Then fast forward again, and so on, like using Find on a computer document.

 

"Mountains of video" still exist but digital recording has advantages.

[BlueChipSecurity 0]

There is no bible or single source of knowledge that will help you accomplish what you wish to know. A professional has one thing that no one else does...experience. If you are serious about your business endeavor, you should hire a professional to help you. Security is one of the most important aspects of any business for a multitude of reasons and you will not be able to put together a proper system for 10 years.

 

CCTV systems are EVERYWHERE, in almost every building/business you walk into in America. Every place I go I always look for cameras and I judge a system. I find that only 1/10 systems are designed and installed correctly. Even in places like airports, coffee shops, restaurants, banks, etc. I travel a lot, as in well over 100 flights a year, I have been in all of the major airports in the country and many international and it is scary to see that many of them have poorly designed systems that are oftentimes not functional or not maintained.

 

My father started a CCTV and security integration company over 30 years ago, and I grew up in the business. I have been designing, installing, and troubleshooting CCTV systems since I was 3. I have over 23 years of hands on experience and I am telling you right now, you should get a real pro to help you. The most common problem I see in ANY cctv system is when the owner/security director decides to try to do it themselves, or hires someone cheap and ends up with a system that does not work, and does not function. Often these systems do not ever end up functioning and are forgotten and money is lost, not only on the system itself, but in other ways that the system was designed to either prevent loss, or protect assets/property.

 

CCTV looks easy, but you have to remember that there are many factors that are not observable.

[twice_shy 0]

Self necroing because I found an example of the kind of thing I was hoping others would point me to. So in case anyone else is looking for similar i'm sharing it for that reason.

 

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR VIDEO SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM FOR PUBLIC AREAS

http://vteb.gov.lv/uploads/files/cctv_requirements_final.pdf

 

Provides clear instructions on of course the purposes of different 'layers' (ie a low resolution/framerate level to just detect presence or movement up to the highest of identifying a specific individual to charge with a crime), the common talk of resolution and framerate, the UNcommon talk of proper lux illumination levels, common lighting mistakes, common mistakes in general - just a simple basic straightforward text talking about starting points. I learned things I didn't expect I would or was under the impression I already understood okay (but realized I didn't).

 

If anyone in the future can bring up similar texts (for pay - even textbooks for security professionals whether theyre $100 or $300 books) please offer.

 

 

Despite suggestions of "you need to hire a professional", I think I first need to have enough basic competence myself to discern the competent from the profiteers. I need to know when i'm being oversold or undersold a system. I have no problem paying someone to do a service as long as i'm not being taken advantage of - the best way to know that is to have a solid competence myself from a few dozen hours of intensive study. From that point the professional justifies what they do by taking things beyond (with their experience) what i'd have implemented myself and I can talk intelligently on the topic with the professional.

[twice_shy 0]

There is no bible or single source of knowledge that will help you accomplish what you wish to know. A professional has one thing that no one else does...experience.

 

I have over 23 years of hands on experience and I am telling you right now, you should get a real pro to help you. The most common problem I see in ANY cctv system is when the owner/security director decides to try to do it themselves,

 

CCTV looks easy, but you have to remember that there are many factors that are not observable.

 

I have to respectfully (but not too severely) disagree. I understand what you are saying, but sometimes it feels like people are implying everything is hopelessly over my head, and sometimes (such as when i've asked for suggested 'best texts' in other fields) I feel like i'm being told "oh thats too complicated for you, were the geniuses, now just pay our fee with the extra zeroes and don't ask any questions."

 

Case in point - when I was trying to get a better understanding of dehumidification technology while working for a friends family business I tried asking on some HVAC boards and got what I felt was the "runaround" with nobody giving me a straight answer. Was almost verbatim what you said actually. I finally tracked down a proper professional text without help that told me everything I wanted to know. I did not after reading it "do it all myself" screwing things up, I rather realized the levels at which I would need a professionals involvement, the levels at which I wouldn't, and which things were so dang ridiculously simple I could suggest solutions to them on my own. (like "boss your real problem is not needing more moisture removal but to stop putting moisture into the air in the first place, move out of this concrete-floor building or cover your floors, then dehumidify the incoming fresh air stream instead of trying to do it after it's here with plug in units, it's all coming from that" and which let them dismiss the first guy who wanted to charge big bucks for a cure instead of using his knowledge to help prevent the problem) Later when things changed I was able to tell him when it was time to justify upgrading to dessicant wheels recharged with waste heat and using chillers and such and knew I couldn't spec a system properly for that.

 

In short I gained a better appreciation for how to tell the real pros from the guys making things more complicated than it needed to be for the simpler problems. At the moment i'm trying to learn the same about here if I can get other suggestions of 'Bible' texts that will get me past any other holes in my understanding so I can plan around when to hand it off to pros.

[ilk 0]

Public space CCTV surveillance has been installed in the United Kingdom for many years and as such work has been carried out to provide guidance and a regulation for the use of CCTV as an ongoing process.

 

Professionally, the consideration of use of CCTV and subsequent design of surveillance systems requires the consideration, generation and documentation of an Operational Requirement. (see the UK Government document https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/378443/28_09_CCTV_OR_Manual2835.pdf)

 

 

This process has gone on to become be included in National & International standards and legislation for the use of CCTV.

 

The current version is part of the British Standards (see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/recommended-standards-for-the-cctv-industry) and will be included at the European level as well.

 

There are a number of more technical documentation published by the BSIA – British Security Industry Association (see http://www.bsia.co.uk/publications/publications-search-results.aspx?PgrID=1206&PageID=1&PID=1206&evl=0&CategoryID=5&CategoryName=CCTV)

 

 

The analogue video categorisation of screen height (1.6m) target image size of requirements to monitor (5%), detect (10%), observe (25%), recognise (50%) and identify (100%) have now being replaced for IP video with pixels on target (DORI) of Detect 25 px/m (8 px/ft), Observe 63 px/m (19 px/ft), Recognise 125 px/m (38 px/ft) and Identify 250 px/m (76 px/ft)

 

Hope this helps

 

Ilkie