High bitrate solutions?

[pdubl 0]

Hello,

 

I am looking for an IP/PoE camera with high bitrate settings.

High, as in 25Mb/s, with a minimum resolution of 1080p30.

Also, IP66 Weather protection or better.

 

Does something like this exist?

Favorite brands/sensors for daylight image quality?

 

While I'm asking, NAS considerations?

Any single or dual-drive (I'd install SSD's) favorites that could handle this?

I'd be using 4, recording simultaneously (so roughly 100Mb/s total) for 12 hours straight.

 

Thanks for your time!

[SunnyKim 2]

25 Mbits Per second For 1080P X 30 FPS?

Yes, almost all IP cameras. You can also play with JPEG, options of Less Frame Rate, more Intra Picture Codings.

[pdubl 0]

Thanks for replying!

 

Thats great to hear that most cameras can do high bitrates.

It seemed like the few cameras/systems I could get numbers on were doing 10-12Mb/s.

I need something that is "GoPro" quality or better, which actually means 30Mb/s.

Are any camera brands known for image quality?

Decent glass lens, better white balance, better exposure adjustment - that kind of stuff.

Nothing too fancy, again just trying to emulate a GoPro under full daylight conditions.

 

Quick direct question. The camera defines the bitrate, correct? Or is it somehow set by the recording software?

 

I need full motion video, 30fps minimum on all channels.

From my experience with video nothing would compete against h.264 in terms of storage, but if full motion MJPEG wasn't too data intensive I'd give it a shot.

 

Any fool-proof, super basic, 4 channel NAS recorders? Maybe something with built-in PoE?

I took a the Synology NVR216, mainly because I am familiar with their NAS products.

Simple software, dual drive sleds, RAID if I want. Alas, it has no PoE.

It's not a deal breaker, but it just means another box and more wires.

 

Please forgive me for all my questions!

[SunnyKim 2]

The int'l standard of H.264 is known to be the best (most efficient comrpession tool), so far. If you give more number of bits for compression, the reconstructed video quality should get better. For 1080P video of 30 FPS, bit rate of 25Mbps sounds to be more than enough. The compression rate of 30 Mbps for GoPro is also more than enough. It should not be correct Gopro's default setting to be 30Mbps. In general 10 Mbps could be considered enough for the best video quality of 1080P sized. You can play with "Quantization Parameter" that the camera setting offers as one of options. Also you can spend (waste) more bits with going for JPEG compression and by assigning more frames to be coded as Intra Coding per second.

[pdubl 0]

GoPro's definitely record at 30Mbps as there default, there is no lower setting.

 

https://gopro.com/support/articles/hero4-silver-recording-time-in-each-video-setting

 

With ProTune they go up to 45Mbps.

My professional sony camera shoots h.264's at 50Mbps.

 

With complex video (tree leaves, water ripples, fast motion), anything below 24mbps starts to show compression.

[SunnyKim 2]

GoPro's definitely record at 30Mbps as there default, there is no lower setting.

 

https://gopro.com/support/articles/hero4-silver-recording-time-in-each-video-setting

 

With ProTune they go up to 45Mbps.

My professional sony camera shoots h.264's at 50Mbps.

 

With complex video (tree leaves, water ripples, fast motion), anything below 24mbps starts to show compression.

Thanks. I do not want to stick to my arguements. But all those recorders including Gopro's by default is to be SD Card with highly limited capacity. I agree to you that those compex video are hard to compress, starting to show compression artifacts at a certain bit rate, below.

You may take quanization parameter as low as possibly the recording options allow, which would give you the best video quality.

[tomcctv 190]

Hi. I would look at 4K with h265 on both the camera and recorder

You will have np problem with bitrate

[pdubl 0]

I think we are off on a tangent.

 

I'm not worried about storage. I'll spend ten times as much on storage if it gives me the picture I want.

 

4K is not necessary, but I'd take it if it's the only solution that pushes a high data rate. h265 is fine, but again I would want to set the bitrate fairly high - the very best h265 encoders will save around 40% vs h264.

 

I work in television. I scrutinize broadcast video. I know a fair bit about compression. I know that with standard h.264 compression you need close to 30Mbs for a quality picture. Even then you can see the compression artifacts. All that really glorious GoPro stuff? Usually shot in "ProTune" at 45Mbs. My NXCam records at 50Mbs.

 

So, basic questions:

1. Which camera brands allow one to set the bitrate to a really high level? Say 30Mbps (h264).

 

2. Which brands are known for their picture quality, independent of bitrate? Quality lenses, good sensors, etc.

[ak357 0]

I think we are off on a tangent.

 

I'm not worried about storage. I'll spend ten times as much on storage if it gives me the picture I want.

 

4K is not necessary, but I'd take it if it's the only solution that pushes a high data rate. h265 is fine, but again I would want to set the bitrate fairly high - the very best h265 encoders will save around 40% vs h264.

 

I work in television. I scrutinize broadcast video. I know a fair bit about compression. I know that with standard h.264 compression you need close to 30Mbs for a quality picture. Even then you can see the compression artifacts. All that really glorious GoPro stuff? Usually shot in "ProTune" at 45Mbs. My NXCam records at 50Mbs.

 

So, basic questions:

1. Which camera brands allow one to set the bitrate to a really high level? Say 30Mbps (h264).

 

2. Which brands are known for their picture quality, independent of bitrate? Quality lenses, good sensors, etc.

The way I understand your request

you must have 30 frames video

Right?

[thewireguys 3]

 

So, basic questions:

1. Which camera brands allow one to set the bitrate to a really high level? Say 30Mbps (h264).

 

2. Which brands are known for their picture quality, independent of bitrate? Quality lenses, good sensors, etc.

 

Well if you don't require 30FPS Avigilon's PRO cameras are hard to beat when it comes to image quality. Resolution options are 4K,4.5K, 5K, 6K, 7K. They use crop frame and full frame sensors with Canon EF and EF-S mount lenses. Image quality is awesome.

 

If you need 30FPS I would look at AXIS cameras as they don't have a bandwidth cap and you can turn the compression level to zero which will get you the bit rates you are looking for.

[Boogieman 1]

The entire premise of the OP is flawed higher bitrate does not equal better image.

[ak357 0]

The entire premise of the OP is flawed higher bitrate does not equal better image.

Why would u say so?

[Boogieman 1]

The entire premise of the OP is flawed higher bitrate does not equal better image.

Why would u say so?

Because the camera sensor/optics is much more important.

Additionally, even when using the same camera there is a point when increasing bandwidth produces no discernible image quality improvement. So you are wasting storage space.

[ak357 0]

Because the camera sensor/optics is much more important.

Additionally, even when using the same camera there is a point when increasing bandwidth produces no discernible image quality improvement. So you are wasting storage space.

 

"Because the camera sensor/optics is much more important"

 

Agree,

but in tv broadcast its different story

for example

they can go as high as 19.3 mbps for 1080 stream

[pdubl 0]

Thanks thewireguys, good links and info. I do need 30fps and about 120° FOV, one of the Axis cameras looks perfect.

 

Because the camera sensor/optics is much more important.

Additionally, even when using the same camera there is a point when increasing bandwidth produces no discernible image quality improvement. So you are wasting storage space.

 

I would agree that optics and sensor are VERY important to creating a good image. This typically means a large piece of glass and a large sensor. However, under full sunlight, the requirements are fairly minimal. A small, inexpensive fixed focus lens works wonderfully. The sensor is getting gobs of light, so it doesn't need to be that fancy. Hence awesome looking video from tiny lenses and sensors on phones.

 

And for a given camera, there is a point of no discernible improvement with bitrate. I would argue that for the typical h264 encoder that point is reached somewhere near 40Mbps. Assuming you have a decent camera, the data rate and compression scheme are the final word on quality. If your video is full motion, with every pixel changing in every frame, you will need a high bitrate. My experience with h264 is that anything below 10Mbps (VBR, 1080p30) is going to look "muddy". You will lose detail in wind-blown tree leaves, water ripples, hair, etc.

 

Is Sony "wasting space" when they record MP4s cameras at 28Mbps? What about their pro cameras at 50Mbps? The difference is night and day.

Is GoPro "wasting space" when you can only choose between 30Mbps and 45Mbps?

Why, if I take uncompressed RAW footage and compress it with h264, can I tell the difference between 16Mbps and 24Mbps?

[Boogieman 1]

Thanks thewireguys, good links and info. I do need 30fps and about 120° FOV, one of the Axis cameras looks perfect.

 

Because the camera sensor/optics is much more important.

Additionally, even when using the same camera there is a point when increasing bandwidth produces no discernible image quality improvement. So you are wasting storage space.

 

I would agree that optics and sensor are VERY important to creating a good image. This typically means a large piece of glass and a large sensor. However, under full sunlight, the requirements are fairly minimal. A small, inexpensive fixed focus lens works wonderfully. The sensor is getting gobs of light, so it doesn't need to be that fancy. Hence awesome looking video from tiny lenses and sensors on phones.

 

And for a given camera, there is a point of no discernible improvement with bitrate. I would argue that for the typical h264 encoder that point is reached somewhere near 40Mbps. Assuming you have a decent camera, the data rate and compression scheme are the final word on quality. If your video is full motion, with every pixel changing in every frame, you will need a high bitrate. My experience with h264 is that anything below 10Mbps (VBR, 1080p30) is going to look "muddy". You will lose detail in wind-blown tree leaves, water ripples, hair, etc.

 

Is Sony "wasting space" when they record MP4s cameras at 28Mbps? What about their pro cameras at 50Mbps? The difference is night and day.

Is GoPro "wasting space" when you can only choose between 30Mbps and 45Mbps?

Why, if I take uncompressed RAW footage and compress it with h264, can I tell the difference between 16Mbps and 24Mbps?

Take video from an ip camera then test it. Dont believe me, knock yourself out. Seems to me that you are trying to use an ip camera for a purpose other than surveillance. What are you trying to accomplish? Where are these going to get installed. What is your budget?

[pdubl 0]

Take video from an ip camera then test it. Dont believe me, knock yourself out.

I'm not sure what you want me to test.

I can prove that with high motion 30Mbps looks better than 15Mbps (everything else being equal), but I don't think that is really the debate.

Are you implying that IP surveillance cameras are of such poor quality that the difference between 15Mbps and 30Mbps would be unnoticeable?

I would find that surprising. They have decent sized lenses, brand name sensors, and realtime h264 encoders are largely the same in terms of performance.

I would assume that given equal data rates to a GoPro, a quality IP camera would look very similar.

No? What is the limiting factor?

 

Seems to me that you are trying to use an ip camera for a purpose other than surveillance. What are you trying to accomplish?

I am using it for something other than surveillance, namely broadcast use, though that's not as fancy as it sounds.

For example, I already stated that I am looking for something that is "GoPro" quality in terms of video.

 

Where are these going to get installed. What is your budget?

They would be installed on the exterior of a large boat.

Lots of motion in the picture, hence the need for high bitrates.

Being installed by the ocean I don't expect them to last forever.

The budget is fairly low, about $400 - $500 per camera.

[Boogieman 1]

Take video from an ip camera then test it. Dont believe me, knock yourself out.

I'm not sure what you want me to test.

I can prove that with high motion 30Mbps looks better than 15Mbps (everything else being equal), but I don't think that is really the debate.

Are you implying that IP surveillance cameras are of such poor quality that the difference between 15Mbps and 30Mbps would be unnoticeable?

I would find that surprising. They have decent sized lenses, brand name sensors, and realtime h264 encoders are largely the same in terms of performance.

I would assume that given equal data rates to a GoPro, a quality IP camera would look very similar.

No? What is the limiting factor?

 

Seems to me that you are trying to use an ip camera for a purpose other than surveillance. What are you trying to accomplish?

I am using it for something other than surveillance, namely broadcast use, though that's not as fancy as it sounds.

For example, I already stated that I am looking for something that is "GoPro" quality in terms of video.

 

Where are these going to get installed. What is your budget?

They would be installed on the exterior of a large boat.

Lots of motion in the picture, hence the need for high bitrates.

Being installed by the ocean I don't expect them to last forever.

The budget is fairly low, about $400 - $500 per camera.

You cannot compare the changes you see in the gopro to an ip camera......Forget about the high bitrate...look for a camera that provides a good image. You are going about this the wrong way....but seems like you know better...