Installation questions mostly stemming from voltage concerns

[Aroundincircles 0]

Of all the responses I’ve read on this and other sites, formulae, numbers and models of equipment, I haven't been able to use the voltage drop calculators I've found to make clear sense to me as to what cables and adapters I need to power my cameras properly.

 

I have the following analog cameras:

• Eight of these: CM-HDA10W-DMA-SGS
  Two of these: CM-HDA10W-BU-SGS

The camera specs indicate they need a power supply of 12V/1.5A, and each camera uses a maximum of 4W.

That’s my first question. Does that mean that each camera only draws 0.33A???

 

The kit came with DC adapters (model CS-1201500) each having specs for an input of 0.5A, and output of 1.5A.

The kit also had a number of 4-way splitters for the DC adapters so that four cameras could be powered off of one adapter.

 

The cameras came in a kit with pre-made, 60', BNC, 24AWG, cables. I don't want to use these cables because even when just testing them new out of the box, the connectors were shaky.

So, I'm looking at buying and running better bulk cable, and crimping my own ends on them. Whether BNC or Ethernet for video is yet to be determined, and is partially dependent on what kind of cable I need to ensure sufficient power for each cable run.

 

Each camera will be approximately 100’ to 150’ from the DVR. The cables will be run outside the house, so I will likely have to use either direct-burial variants of whichever cable, or PVC piping. Either way, the cost seems to be about the same.

I have looked at CAT5e, CAT6, RG56, and several other, thicker types of multi-core cables, and I’ve even considered running 12/2 for just the electrical and CAT5e or CAT6 for the video and audio.

I’ve read about voltage drop, cable impedance, and a few other blurred topics. Each example/explanation warns of varying degradations or impending doom if the wrong kind of cable is used over the longer distances. For that matter, I’ve heard 100’ being referred to as a short distance as well as a long one…. It’s all relative.

This begs my next questions.

For the 100’ to 150’ runs, can I use CAT5e, should I get CAT6, or should I use another combination of cables?

Are there differences to consider for the video and audio?

If Ethernet is the way to go, should I get solid core, or stranded core?

 

With regards to baluns (from being used, with all the different types and vendors out there, I have not seen any feedback about quality or differences.

Are all baluns more or less the same or are there component qualities/properties to consider?

I am also trying to decide if I should be plugging all these DC adapters into a power strip that’s plugged into a UPS, or if I should use one of those power distribution boxes and just skip the DC adapters altogether. If the latter, is there a way to have the distribution box protected by a UPS?

Either way, I will likely be asking an electrician to install an outlet for all of this on its own breaker (for which I assume 15A should be enough).

 

And finally… in terms of bringing all the cabling into the house, I’m going to be bringing in all the cable runs through one hole, and I’m considering making this hole come into the electrical panel. I was thinking of stowing the DVR in there as well because there aren’t really any other places to hide the DVR and cable bundle. Does anyone know if this is likely to cause too much interference?

 

Many, many thanks in advance.

[the toss 0]

Your questions in order of posting -

 

* If each camera states 4W @ 12V then each camera requires 0.33A. If the cameras have IR lighting then 0.33A would seem a bit low.

* You have not made clear the type of camera ( analogue , IP , HD/analogue ) - I dont go searching the internet looking up serial numbers. If it is analogue then use quality RG59 coax (NOT RG6) or cat5/6 with baluns. Baluns are simply impedance transformers, there is not much difference in them except the better ones have a bit of built in filtering. If it is IP then cat 5/6 is used. It doesn't matter which as both will easily handle the speed requirements. For IP 100' is a long run.

*If the cable is being buried then put them in conduit and save some heartache

*If using cat cable get solid as there is 15% more conductor area. Stranded is used where flexibility is required like patch cables

* I wouldn't mount your DVR or run cables through your electricity box. Besides being probably illegal it would be a prime source of possible interference. Cabling is a lot of work -why risk having to do it over

[Aroundincircles 0]

Hi 'the toss',

 

Thanks for your reply. Here are the clarifications you needed and a couple of follow-up questions.

Both types of cameras are 1080p HD Analog, and yes they are equipped with IR for night vision.

Questions:

Just to clarify, are you saying that for an analog camera on RG56 or even CAT5e/CAT6 (with solid cores) that the distance of 100' or even 150' is not a concern with regards to voltage drop? Is there any chance you can show me how you calculated this, because any online voltage drop calculator I've tried to use always came up with insufficient voltage at that distance.

 

You mentioned 'quality RG56'. Can you tell me what distinguishes a quality one from a cheap one? I ask because even good brands make cheap versions.

 

No cables are being buried. I only said that I'd even looked at direct-burial in case they carried the electrical current better. But if I'll be using RG56 or CAT5e/CAT6, I will still run them through PVC pipes.

 

Thanks for the advice on not going through the electrical panel. I just figured since the phone companies did it... But I'll figure out another place to drill the hold for the bundle of cables.

 

Even though the original kit came with the 1.5A power adapters, the camera company representative said I could use a 1A adapter since I would have to put one adapter per camera at the cable distances I am going to be using (i.e. 100'-150').

Would this make a difference for the better or worse in terms of voltage arriving at the cameras?

And finally, do you have any advice on using the power distribution boxes rather than the individual adapters? Anything to watch out for when considering those boxes (again, there seem to be very many models. I was considering the ones with the self-resetting fuses).

 

Thanks again.

[the toss 0]

The camera voltage is generally not run over the coax. Excessive voltage drop comes about when using too small guage for the distance & current requirements. This is a straight forward mathematical calculation using Ohms Law. For 150' 14/020 will do the job. At first I thought your mention of RG56 was a typo error but you keep mentioning it. I have never heard of it and investigations reveal it is simply a heavy duty RG6 with a 1.5mm centre conductor. These cables are designed for digital TV use and have poor shielding performance at CCTV baseband frequencies - you have been warned. They may work in your environment but ...........

Quality RG59 will have >95% pure copper braided shielding and at least a 0.9mm pure copper centre conductor. Solid neoprene dielectric not blown foam. Use Crimp or compression BNC fittings and ensure the centre pin is suitable for your centre conductor size.

I worked in telecommunications for 25 years and comms cabling through a power box was a big no no. However it may be different where you live.

Power distribution boxes certainly make the job look a lot neater however you are putting all your eggs in one basket if you get my drift.

[Orange Security 0]

The calculations are all well and good, however practical experience is just as important! Looking at your cameras briefly, they will only have a small current requirement.

 

My advice is to avoid cable runs of over 200ft when using CAT5/5e/6 with video baluns and running the power along the same length of cable.

 

You want to use 1 pair (of 4) internal wires for the video and combine the remaining 3 pairs for the power in this manor (choice of colors is not important - just stick with the same wiring protocol system wide):

 

 

and this:

 

 

Avoid "video baluns" that look like this (in quotation marks as they are not technically video baluns):

 

 

Again, from experience, we have experienced a much lower number of instances of interference using video baluns and is what we recommend for all our customers now.

 

Definitely agree about not taking the video cabling through a power distribution box - make the split outside the box.

[Aroundincircles 0]

Hi 'the toss',

 

Thanks again for the reply.

 

A giant smack to my forehead with regards to typing 'RG56' rather than the 'RG59'. There are times when a certain misspelling of a word, or a wrong acronym or number gets stuck in my head... and that's it. In my head I knew I was referring to the siamese cable (i.e. RG6 with 18/2).....

 

However, you mentioned using 14/020 cable, of which I'd never even heard mention on any website or cable supplier's site. In fact, when I did a quick search for images of this kind of cable, all the results were from Australian websites. I'm wondering if this is just used there... hmmm.

[Aroundincircles 0]

Hi 'Orange Security',

 

Thanks for the reply.

This is where my confusion kicks in. CAT5e has AWG of 24 and CAT6 has AWG of 23. I am uncertain of their impedance/resistance/what-have-you to be able to properly use an online voltage drop calculator. I understand Ohm's law, I just don't understand how to calculate the resistance over the length required. Whatever calculations I tried, it seemed like I would need something like 10 pairs of an ethernet cable to get the right voltage to the cameras.... which would mean having to run 25-pair cable, which I knew to be ridiculous.

 

Also, there is an issue with regards to the two audio-enabled cameras in the that they would need at least one of the four pairs which would reduce the pairs for power to just two, which may introduce too much voltage drop to the camera.

 

If you can clarify what needs to be done with the cabling for the two audio-enabled cameras, I'd appreciate it.

 

Thanks again.

[Orange Security 0]

As I said in my previous post, the theory is all well and good, however reality often doesn't always align!

 

You need to find out from someone who has literally taken a roll of CAT5e cable and experimented with various different lengths! As sad as it sounds, we've run all sorts of practical tests like that. What we do is work out what we consider the max length of no degradation of quality, add what we consider to be an acceptable margin of error and that is the figure we publish. We found that even our most power-hungry cameras (excluding PTZ) would operate absolutely perfectly on 3 pairs of CAT5e cable for power and 1 pair for video with passive video baluns (such as the ones in the images I posted earlier) over 200ft.

 

I have just installed another camera at my parents' home using CAT5e cable with a run length of over 150 feet with no problem.

 

Having looked up your cameras, I know your products will require less current than our most power-hungry camera (12V).

 

I am not a fan of security cameras with audio built in for a number of reasons, however that's probably beyond the scope of this post!

 

The honest truth is that given what your cameras are, they are almost likely going to be perfectly fine with 2 pairs for power, 1 pair for audio and 1 for video (this is practical experience speaking). Having said that, I would not recommend it. I would only recommend a "belt-and-braces" approach of 3 pairs for power, 1 pair for video and then deal with the audio using another length of cable.

 

2 things to keep an eye on:

 

1. Make sure you use pure copper as opposed to CCA (avoid CCA for security cameras like the plague).

2. If any of your cable run is going to be outside then I would highly recommend you buy a CAT5e cable with a UV stable jacket.

 

I hope that helps!

[tomcctv 190]

Hi. No need for extra cable as audio is with video data.

 

Which recorder will you be using ?

 

I would use cat5 cable with HD baluns.

[Aroundincircles 0]

Hi 'Orange Security',

 

Thanks for the reply.

Definitely only pure copper conductors.

So... it remains a toss-up between CAT5e/6 and RG59. From your, and 'the toss' experience in the field, it sounds like either type of cable will do the job.

Does it just come down to cost? Will ethernet with 10 pairs of baluns likely cost more or will it cost less than RG59?

And yes, the cable will be outside, but regardless of type of cable I end up using, it's going to be run through PVC piping, although considering our temperature range around here, I should get the one best rated for outdoor exposure.

 

Thanks again.

[Aroundincircles 0]

Hi 'tomcctv',

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

The recorder I'll be using is the "dvr-hda10pb-16". HD, 1080P, analog.

Can I ask you to clarify what you meant by saying "audio is with video data." ?

Thanks!

[the toss 0]

Hi 'the toss',

 

Thanks again for the reply.

 

A giant smack to my forehead with regards to typing 'RG56' rather than the 'RG59'. There are times when a certain misspelling of a word, or a wrong acronym or number gets stuck in my head... and that's it. In my head I knew I was referring to the siamese cable (i.e. RG6 with 18/2).....

 

However, you mentioned using 14/020 cable, of which I'd never even heard mention on any website or cable supplier's site. In fact, when I did a quick search for images of this kind of cable, all the results were from Australian websites. I'm wondering if this is just used there... hmmm.

 

14/020 is 14 strands of .02mm wire. It is a fairly standard size used in the security industry. The thinner one being 7/020 the thicker being 24/020. The standard wire guage is not all that accurate when dealing with stranded cable. It may not be relevent in day to day matters but it is in engineering.

[tomcctv 190]

Hi 'tomcctv',

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

The recorder I'll be using is the "dvr-hda10pb-16". HD, 1080P, analog.

Can I ask you to clarify what you meant by saying "audio is with video data." ?

Thanks!

 

Hi ... your listed cameras send video and audio together down the same cable... coax or cat5.

 

But you need to check that the night owl LITE dvr supports it

[Aroundincircles 0]

Hi 'Tomcctv'.

 

Hmmm.... I thought that that's what you meant about video and audio, but I'm not sure that's correct because the audio-enabled cameras have a separate RCA cable for the audio, and the BNC cable for the video (and one with the female end for the power).

 

Also, my DVR doesn't mention 'Lite' anywhere on it. That DVR doesn't seem to be on Night Owl's site anymore, but I've found the specs elsewhere and no mention is made of the audio and video sharing a cable. But let's say that that was the case, how would the signal know how to be split at the DVR end? What kind of dongle/balun/splitter/pigtail/etc. would be used?

 

Other than not using another cable for audio, what would be the benefit to sending audio and video over the same RG59 or the same pair(s) in ethernet?

 

Is there any chance you could provide a link to a schematic or example where someone has set this up this way?

 

Thanks.

[tomcctv 190]

Hmmm.... I thought that that's what you meant about video and audio, but I'm not sure that's correct because the audio-enabled cameras have a separate RCA cable for the audio, and the BNC ca

 

It is correct ........ The reason why your camera also has audio out is if it is connected to a dvr that does not support audio over coax

But your system does ...... It's up to you if you want to waste money running cable for audio ... When it's standard.

 

But let's say that that was the case, how would the signal know how to be split at the DVR end? What kind of dongle/balun/splitter/pigtail/etc. would be used?

 

It is split at the dvr as data.....digital.......video is 1 signal audio is another and also with your dvr you also send digital signal Back to camera for OSD settings....... All down one coax.

You can also Run all your cameras down 2 coax.......that's digital

 

 

Other than not using another cable for audio, what would be the benefit to sending audio and video over the same RG59 or the same pair(s) in ethernet?

 

Saves cost and saves running cables ........

 

From memory on your dvr you only have 4 audio if you used the RCA on back of unit .........so you have already wasted money on buying 10 cams with audio.

[Aroundincircles 0]

Hi 'TomCCTV', ... and all,

 

I spent about a half hour yesterday trying to get Night Owl's tech support to explain how this video and audio over coax can be set up. I think I'm going to have to conduct a test on my own to see if/how this works. If it does, it's good news I guess. If it doesn't, I'm likely going to go with cable similar to one of these two types:

 

Belden’s 5288US (http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/5288US.pdf) though I'm hoping to find a non-plenum version (even by another brand).

 

I also saw this other ‘composite’ cable on Anixter's site: (https://www.anixter.com/en_ca/products/7952A-337500/BELDEN/Multi-Pair-Multi-Conductor-Cable/p/B7952A)

The only confusion is that the picture of the cable shows two 14AWG conductors, but the spec sheet mentions four 14AWG conductors.

 

Either of those cables will more than do the job. They might be overkill, but I'd like to go with Ethernet cabling in case I ever want to go with IP cameras one day, and these will last.

 

Thank you all for your help!

[tomcctv 190]

Wow. Why come on to a CCTV forum and then shut down the advice.

 

 

You only need cat5 cable ..... Works for every installer with any camera.

 

Your cameras are tvi ...... If you don't wish to install with that technology then use a pair of cat5 for audio.

 

But save yourself a phone call to tech and look at the back of your dvr .........only 4 audio inputs. ....... You have 10 audio cameras

 

 

You only need a reel of standard cat5

Baluns HD type

 

And that is all you need

[Aroundincircles 0]

Hi 'TomCCTV',

 

Nope, I definitely was not brushing aside any of the advice I got here. I sincerely appreciate it and I've learned from it!

I'm just paranoid about taking the leap for this project. It's a lot of money for me and I just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

 

I should clarify that I made a mistake in my first post about the camera quantities.

I initially said I have

• Eight of these: CM-HDA10W-DMA-SGS
  Two of these: CM-HDA10W-BU-SGS

But in fact, it's the other way around.

• Two of these: CM-HDA10W-DMA-SGS
  Eight of these: CM-HDA10W-BU-SGS

So I have ten cameras in the kit, but only two of them are audio-enabled.

 

 

So ... the other cable types I mentioned, I guess I will ignore and stick with regular CAT5e (I assume you meant 5e and not plain 5??) cable with HD passive baluns.

 

I understand that TVI is some sort of 'intermediate' technology between analog and IP-based cameras/DVRs, but I'm not clear on why you mentioned that. (??)

[Orange Security 0]

So ... the other cable types I mentioned, I guess I will ignore and stick with regular CAT5e (I assume you meant 5e and not plain 5??) cable with HD passive baluns.

 

Whether it is CAT5/5e/6 basically makes no difference when used with baluns for security cameras. We stock CAT5e cable as it is more common and more readily available. People naturally seem to think CAT5e even when they say CAT5. We don't stock CAT6 as there is absolutely no point in paying the additional costs (when used with video baluns for security cameras).

 

And to address your previous question:

 

Hi 'Orange Security',

So... it remains a toss-up between CAT5e/6 and RG59. From your, and 'the toss' experience in the field, it sounds like either type of cable will do the job.

Does it just come down to cost? Will ethernet with 10 pairs of baluns likely cost more or will it cost less than RG59?

 

The reality is that with a competent installer and well planned cable runs the outcome of either RG59 or CAT5e will be the same. My personal experience however with people doing DIY installs is that CAT5e + video baluns tend to produce better results. The reasons that I have come up with for this are:

 

1. You can give people all the cable running guidance (e.g. not running along other mains power cables) however people either don't take it in or don't have an option in some cases. CAT5e is much more resistant to interference being induced on the cable.

 

2. Crimp on/Compression connectors are great if you know what you're doing, however the process is a bit tricky with having to strip the cable and fit the compression/crimp-on connectors. I've found that someone picking up video baluns for the first time find it much easier than compression/crimp-on connectors. Don't tell her I said this, but even my wife can use our video baluns - not even a screwdriver required!

 

For the 2 reasons above, we have actually dropped all other cabling options than CAT5e cabling + video baluns.

 

Oh, one final point - you'll find baluns with pigtails such as these:

 

 

Much easier to connect into the rear of your recorder than the baluns that come without pigtails.

[Aroundincircles 0]

Hi 'Orange Security',

 

I appreciate the follow-up advice and explanation.

I'm just wondering how it's possible that there is no difference in the different ethernet cables because I've read they have differing impedance/resistance.

[tomcctv 190]

Hi 'Orange Security',

 

I appreciate the follow-up advice and explanation.

I'm just wondering how it's possible that there is no difference in the different ethernet cables because I've read they have differing impedance/resistance.

 

 

Hi. Yes you are right on impedance. Coax is made in 50 or 75ohm

75 is standard for CCTV

 

Cat cable and alarm cable or just normal cable is all 100ohm. That is why we have baluns .......the baluns job is to change the cable from 100 to 75ohm .... Or conversation of unbalanced to balanced