MPEG4 or H.264 hardware comp. for viewing LIVE via DSL?

[ICUUCME 0]

Hi guys. Great forum.

 

I am currently designing a 16 camera system for my family's business. We have a standard DSl line.

 

It's going to be a PC based system with DVR cards that use hardware compression.

 

I want to be able to view the cameras live from the internet (sometimes)

Since I'm dealing with limited upload bandwidth I'm willing to spend a little more money on the best hardware compression technology.

 

I thought that H.264 was the best compression technology available but I just read that MPEG4 is better.

 

The business is also located in a VERY bad part of town and I want the system to upload as much video/images as possible to an off-site server if the motion detection is activated. (The video won't be much good when they steal the DVR.)

 

So which technology is the better choice for quality/compression? MPEG4 or H.264? I'm not talking about high definition quality but enough to see a criminal's face.

 

BTW, I'm looking at AVermedia, Acti, RapidOS, IBase

 

I really want quality but I don't want to pay a ridiculous amount. I learned about GeoVision from reading this forum but the price of their cards really seems far beyond what most capture cards/software go for. I'm sure they are nice but it's probably a little too rich for our budget and needs.

 

I'd love to know any of your thoughs, good or bad on the brands I've mentioned and any other advice you can offer. I'm also willing to look into any other brands of cards that you guys recommend

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this and helping me out.

 

Brett

[Thomas 0]

Short of looking at a T-1 or better connection you will not have enough upload bandwith for off-site storage to be feasable.

[CollinR 0]

You are far better off hiding the DVR and accessing it 100% remotely, then put up an obvious cheapo CCTV setup VCR/monitor. Most crooks don't expect redundent systems but I would make the wires where they don't pull through the ceiling easily. If the cheapo setup is actually somewhat function run your DSP output to it's channel 1 then have the monitor show channel 1.

 

I have done this with cheapo TV/VCR combos from walmart and the like, just put a CCTV sticker on it and you are good to go.

 

 

The next step is putting a camera inside the junker for that excellent face shot while they try to yank it.

[ICUUCME 0]

Thanks for the replies guys I appreciate it.

 

I still need to know which compression is better, MPEG4 or H.264?

 

Certainly I should be able to upload a little low frame rate video with a DSL line right? I more concerned with at least getting a little video and/or screen captures uploaded before they have a chance to rip out the system.

[CollinR 0]

H.264 is MPEG4 layer 10. So same same, sometimes .

 

Just when you thought you were drowning in info too.

 

 

 

EDIT: With the right FTP client you might be able to setup a LIFO directory sync between the two. I just don't think remote viewing would work very well anymore.

 

Also since you use DSL, it'll all be toast when they cut the phoneline so I doubt you would have any remote images half the time anyway. You really need to have it stored locally just get more creative.

[Thomas 0]

It would destroy the remote viewing unless you know what you're doing with QoS set up and want to drop the money on a real router.

 

Certainly I should be able to upload a little low frame rate video with a DSL line right? I more concerned with at least getting a little video and/or screen captures uploaded before they have a chance to rip out the system.

 

The real world answer is no. On a cheap DSL connection you will not have enough upload bandwith or latentcy to make this feasible. Most DSL connections are ADSL (Asyncronis Digital Suscriber Line). Which means your upload and download bandwith will be differant. Most lower tier DSL packages are 256k to 756k upload speeds. If motion is occuring then you will generate video faster then you can move it.

 

So if you get robs when you're a half hour or so behind on your video...well that system is useless. This isn't like a P2P transfer of video, there is a live requirement to make it useful.

[ICUUCME 0]

Thanks for the input guys I really appreciate it.

 

I'm curious. What is the difference between a highly compressed, low frame rate video that I would be uploading and the webcam video I use via Yahoo and MSN messenger with relatives across the country? That video seems to do OK via the limited upload speeds.

 

What upload speeds would I need to be able to view my cameras live over the internet at something like 12FPS? Does whether or not the image is color or B/W affect upload speeds?

 

Thanks again for all of your help, I'm learning a lot.

[odiggity 0]

try getting a network attached storage box that mirrors the server. I have a maxtor shared storage and have it sync up with my dvr server once per day. You could set it up to sync every few minutes if you wanted.

 

it connects via ethernet, so you could put it anywhere you could get a cable. there are wireless adapters you can get as well, but if its capturing alot of video, it might get overloaded.

[rory 0]

I'm curious. What is the difference between a highly compressed, low frame rate video that I would be uploading and the webcam video I use via Yahoo and MSN messenger with relatives across the country? That video seems to do OK via the limited upload speeds.

 

There is a huge difference. Typically those "webcams" are very little quality, the software compresses it to death, and the image size is tiny. Also, you arent using it for security purposes.

 

You can generally record with wavelet or Mpeg4, and stream with a seperate codec such as H.264, which will be faster, but lower quality. Mpeg4 is a good medium. Though it really does differ from one DVR to the next.

 

What upload speeds would I need to be able to view my cameras live over the internet at something like 12FPS? Does whether or not the image is color or B/W affect upload speeds?

 

BW is a smaller image and so will be faster, as it takes up less bandwidth. Upload speed requirements will differ from one DVR to the next so you will have to check the different DVRs first, as well as know how many cameras you are looking to stream at one time, in one multi view window. This all matters. Standard DSL typically wont be great, in fact in our country DSL is useless for remote video. You really want an upload speed of 256 and up, at the least.

[ak357 0]

Rory have you try Slingbox (www.slingmedia.com) ?

 

kinda cool little toy for streaming 1 camera

[Thomas 0]

Most of the webcams are putting out a 160 x 120 image. That's a quarter of the size of a 320 x 240 image and an sixtheenth of the size of a 640 x 480 video frame. Also note that CCTV doesn't compress the image as tightly.

 

Most web cams give you between 3 and 7 fps on a normal DSL connection. So that scales up to 1 to 2 fps for 320 x 240. And under 1 fps 640 x 480. And that's for a single camera. Most remote clients use a few tricks to speed up framerates but you have to make a trade off somewhere.

[ICUUCME 0]

I just discovered that I can get 1.5 Mbps upload speed from my local cable provider.

 

What are my possibilities with that speed?

[Thomas 0]

Not enough to matter. Trust me, I talk to 10 people a week who want to try it. For the near future the ability to do off-site storage doesn't work. It doesn't begin to become feasable untill you start looking at 8 Mbps+ speeds. And then it doesn't scale very well.

[rory 0]

off site storage is good for emergency recording, but still should have the higher quality local storage ...

[ICUUCME 0]

off site storage is good for emergency recording, but still should have the higher quality local storage ...

Oh I'm defintely going to have on site local storage. Several large SATA Seagate's.

 

I just though that since there would be very little recording at night due to the use of motion detection, I could have whatever was caught on camera uploaded for safe-keeping in case they decided to take the DVR.

 

It would be great if the DVR could record in small 10 second chunks and have some sort of of program could compress and automatically upload it.

 

I guess I'll just design it as I originally intended and see what happens.

[rory 0]

I use Center2 with Geovision for offsite storage, mostly for video verification, but if they want it, we offer it. Been running it for 1 month now with a couple remote test sites and it works well. The attachment quality is not that of the local DVR, but its good enough for verification. Also email testing worked well.

 

Video is only sent on motion detection, but can be brought up manually at any time. There are also other configurations.

 

There are also confirgurations on the DVR side for the Center2 connection.

[ICUUCME 0]

I use Center2 with Geovision for offsite storage, mostly for video verification, but if they want it, we offer it. Been running it for 1 month now with a couple remote test sites and it works well. The attachment quality is not that of the local DVR, but its good enough for verification. Also email testing worked well.

 

Video is only sent on motion detection, but can be brought up manually at any time. There are also other configurations.

 

There are also confirgurations on the DVR side for the Center2 connection.

What is Center2? They have a website I presume?

[rory 0]

http://www.geovision.com.tw/english/solution/GV-CV2_Intro.htm

 

The pro version cost$$ and handles more sites/cameras, while the regular version comes with the DVR card.