What system for this application????

[Wayne02 0]

Howdy, new guy here looking to purchase and install a video system. I have been frustrated trying to find the straight technical scoop on the various systems. I tried the usenet group and that was a giant waste of time with all the bs bickering, dick swinging contests etc. I'm not in the industry, but it sure seems like everybody and their brother is a "security" guy in my area. This board sure looks promising, glad I stumbled across it.

 

Application:

- Single story residential home AND detached shop building located right next door.

- Want to observe/record trespassers/break-ins, license plates etc.

- Both shop and house currently have separate non-monitored alarm systems - motion, door/window, rate of rise, internal and external alarms etc.

- I will do the installation as, a) I want to save some money, b) I have the skills (working on getting the knowledge), c) I'm interested in the technology.

- While we have lived here 22 years now and have never had a problem, I would feel better if there were a video system to compliment the alarm system.

- If forced to choose between the two buildings I would give preference to the shop as it likely contains more value than what is in house.

 

- Cameras will be placed as follows:

1) External view of shop man-door #1 (side/front of shop)

2) External view of shop man-door #2 (back of shop)

3) External view across the front of the three large shop rollup doors.

4) Internal view of shop, unsure how/where to point yet.

5) External view of single lane, dead-end, private road. There are only two houses downstream from us and the road gets very little traffic. I should be able to position a camera on the fence post closest to the road (probably hide it in a birdhouse or something) and get shots of the cars coming up the road.

6) External view of house front door and garage door, possibly extending down the side of the house to the two bedroom windows if sufficient range.

7) External view of house back sliding door, garage man-door, and possibly extending down back side of house to include bedroom window.

8. External view of sliding door on side of house (entrance to garage).

 

Requirements:

- 8 cameras/channels

- Color cameras with ability to have some night vision (yes, I have pretty good motion lighting at most locations)

- Longest single run between camera and recorder less than 120'.

- Ability to view cameras in both quad and single view from any of the four pc's currently on our home LAN.

- Ability to view cameras remotely through the internet.

- Ability to easily review and manipulate the recorded footage - jog/shuttle etc.

- Ability to burn a dvd of a portion of the recording for local leo if needed.

- Ability to pick up car make/model/color/plate from driveway.

- The more it is a "set it, and forget it" type system (understanding some maintenance is needed) the happier I'll be. Maybe this means a large HD for long record times?

- Budget? I'm guessing under 2K here, closer to 1k is better of course, but is been hard for me to get a handle on a value price point for a run of the mill home system installed by the homeowner.

- Would really like to have a complete system vs. piecing components together, although I recognize that with the proper knowledge a person may very well get more value for the dollar that way. While I'm interested in the technology, I don't really want to make a career out of it.

 

So there you have it, my application and requirements as best I can detail them out.

 

 

After being frustrated at trying to find good info for the diy'er I went to costco and purchased this system the other day for just under $1000 thinking I would buy 4 more cameras to add to the system:

 

Sentinel Observation System

21â€

[rapid 0]

Wayne02,

 

Noticed you've had lots of hits but no responses.....I'm thinking your post is too large for someone to reply....but that's just me.

 

Based on your budget of $1-2K, you are asking alot from the equipment. In particular is the capability of wanting to identify persons, license plates. To achieve this you would need high resolution, low light capability cameras which would not fit in your budget.

 

I'm a firm believer of beefing up existing security elements, doors, locks, windows, fencing as part of a security package. I applaud you for installing the alarm system and recommending video as a compliment. " title="Applause" />

 

Based on your budget, I suggest you risk manage....you indicated that the garage as the key area of concern, so think you should focus on this building.

 

Haven't had experience with the Sentinel Observation system although from the specs it does meet your needs and budget.

 

Did some research on the Eazeo system from Bosch which may work for you, although budget wise it would be over.....you can always check it out.

 

http://www.boschsecurity.us/pdf/EN/EAZEO%5FApplNoteRes%5Fen%2Epdf

 

Perhaps the members have other suggestions for Observation systems if you decide to return the Sentinel.

[jeffpa 0]

Because you'll need to sell some to get the system you are asking for.

 

To get License plate recognition, that camera alone is 2400$.

You can get so-so recognition from the Panasonic and Bosch cameras.

Both are mentioned in the forums if you search. Cost around 600$

each.

 

But if you want 100% LPR, thats the cost of that alone.

 

Just to give you an idea, I used Samsung SDC-415 cameras (day/night)

at a cost of 270$ each from my installer (and yes, I could order myself

cheaper, but warranty and dealer handles issues was important

to me for a first system).

 

My DVR cost close to 4k (Samsung SVR-1650). Install time

alone will long exhaust your 1k budget, depending on the installation.

 

 

You can go cheap if you want, but then thats what you get, a

cheap system.

[CollinR 0]

I don't see it happening in your budget, sorry.

 

It would be better to save some $ then put what you have into inferior pieces.

 

Buy the best wire and terminals you can, you can skimp on the cameras and upgrade them later when needed. By skimp I don't mean head to ebay, I mean what most of us call Chinese junk. Get 400+ line CCD cameras. Buy a decent PC based DVR that can capture 480 lines, you can use the best quality cameras availble but if you use crap wire, terminals and DVR you will still have a junk picture.

 

Get a basic Dell PC with Intel motherboard ($299 right now complete) and throw in a decent DVR card with ~60 fps (Intotech works, Geovision and Avermedia are better). Now you should be up to ~$700-$800 in the DVR.

 

You can use a chinese powersupply if you like ~$80-$100. Expect to replace it every few years.

 

Wire and terminals probably in the $200 range.

 

Thats $1100 before you have even started looking at cameras.

 

 

Don't try to buy another complete package like that.

 

 

EDITed

 

To get License plate recognition, that camera alone is 2400$.

You can get so-so recognition from the Panasonic and Bosch cameras.

Both are mentioned in the forums if you search. Cost around 600$

each.

 

If your driveway is basically a 1 lane road with only 1 way in/out you can easily have plate recognition for under $250. You will just need to be careful with your lens selection and you will need to get close to the vehicle. As usual you will be wasting that camera on plates alone, for good recognition you will need the plate to take up a good amount of the picture, so much so that you won't see anything but vehicle.

[Wayne02 0]

Thanks for the replies, I do appreciate it. I recognize my post was long and that would be a turn-off, but I know how frustrating it is to try and give advice to people who have not defined their application & requirements.

 

I also don't mind paying more for a quality system, just did not know where the price points were and such. Running all this cable is do-able, but won't be a pleasant job and if I'm going to that much work I want the thing to work halfway well when I'm done. Some follow-on questions if you don't mind.

 

With regards to the camera used to capture plates. If I put a camera on the fence post that closely borders the edge of the road I should be able to capture cars coming up the road (towards the camera) and cars going down the road (away from the camera). This seems like it would probably work ok during the daytime, but this road has zero lighting on it and I'm wondering if the camera would work at all to pick up plates at night?

 

Seems like when the car is traveling towards the camera the headlights would wash out the picture? Might be able to pick the rear plate out when the vehicle is going away from the camera if the vehicle had a license plate light?

 

My other option here is to use two cameras, one on the shop driveway, and one on the house driveway. These two driveways come off the narrow private road I mentioned above and are spaced about 40' apart. Both these driveways are very shallow in depth. I could put one camera on the shop to capture any cars turning into that driveway and one camera above the garage door on the house garage to capture any cars turning into there. The disadvantage to this route is it would use two cameras vs the one camera out on the road. The advantage to this route would be I have motion sensing flood lighting on both these driveways and this might help the camera pick up the plates?????????????

 

Thanks

Wayne

[Wayne02 0]

Buy the best wire and terminals you can, you can skimp on the cameras and upgrade them later when needed. By skimp I don't mean head to ebay, I mean what most of us call Chinese junk. Get 400+ line CCD cameras. Buy a decent PC based DVR that can capture 480 lines, you can use the best quality cameras availble but if you use crap wire, terminals and DVR you will still have a junk picture.

 

I'm a bit confused as to how the pc based systems work. As I mentioned I do have a couple extra pc's around here that might work but can you get a dvr card that supports 8 cameras? How does it work, does it record 24/7 to the hard-drive?

 

What software interface is used? How much does the software cost?

 

I'm assuming I can set up a monitor on the pc that would show the quad view or cycle through the cameras just like the sentenal all-in-one system I had? One thing I liked about that 21" crt/dvr system is all the functions had hardware buttons (camera controls/dvr controls etc.) on the front of the unit and it was relatviely intuitive to use. I liked the idea of putting that monitoring unit in the kitchen where people could use it. I assume that with a pc based system all those controls are software use only??

 

With a pc based system I'm assuming I can set it up so that any of the 4 pc's on my home lan can view and control the cameras and recording? I also will need to monitor the systems remotely via the internet?

[Wayne02 0]

Wire and terminals probably in the $200 range.

What cable and connectors are typically used on cctv systems?

 

I wired the cable tv, network, speakers, phone etc in both my house and my shop myself. Purchased the wire and connectors in bulk, purchased the various hand-tools needed etc. Think I still have a couple hundred feet of Rg6U left over, or whatever that was that I used for the cable tv.

 

That sentinel/costco system I had used pre-molded cable (6 din or something like that). I can see where pre-made lengths of cable would be a pia when making all these odd length cable runs.

 

Thanks

Wayne

[CollinR 0]

I'm a bit confused as to how the pc based systems work. As I mentioned I do have a couple extra pc's around here that might work but can you get a dvr card that supports 8 cameras? How does it work, does it record 24/7 to the hard-drive?

 

What software interface is used? How much does the software cost?

 

Google Geovision and Avermedia, they record based on many things that you specify to the hard drive. They come in multiples of 4 inputs with a max of 16 usually. It can be configured to record 24/7 or only when there is motion in the camera's FOV. Geovision actually has a plate logging application. The basic software comes with the hardware. Buy from a reputable dealer (rory works).

 

 

I'm assuming I can set up a monitor on the pc that would show the quad view or cycle through the cameras just like the sentenal all-in-one system I had? One thing I liked about that 21" crt/dvr system is all the functions had hardware buttons (camera controls/dvr controls etc.) on the front of the unit and it was relatviely intuitive to use. I liked the idea of putting that monitoring unit in the kitchen where people could use it. I assume that with a pc based system all those controls are software use only??

 

Yup, the Intotech comes with a DSP out that you can modulate to your CATV system so you can watch the rollover from any TV in the house (add about $100). Yes, I haven't seen a real PC solution with hardware buttons, many of the systems do have a controller but they are more focused on PTZ (pan/tilt/zoom) control rather then software control.

 

With a pc based system I'm assuming I can set it up so that any of the 4 pc's on my home lan can view and control the cameras and recording? I also will need to monitor the systems remotely via the internet?

 

Yup and with the greater processing power of modern PCs you can stream it over the internet much more effciently.

[CollinR 0]

What cable and connectors are typically used on cctv systems?

 

Copper RG59 siamesed with 18-2 stranded power wire and BNC twist on terminals (arguable, many like souldering, crimping or compressing).

 

I wired the cable tv, network, speakers, phone etc in both my house and my shop myself. Purchased the wire and connectors in bulk, purchased the various hand-tools needed etc. Think I still have a couple hundred feet of Rg6U left over, or whatever that was that I used for the cable tv.

 

RG6 is usually aluminum and not suitable for CCTV applications, it is designed for higher frequency transmission.

 

 

Thanks

Wayne

 

Anytiiiiime.

[Wayne02 0]

]With a pc based system I'm assuming I can set it up so that any of the 4 pc's on my home lan can view and control the cameras and recording? I also will need to monitor the systems remotely via the internet?

 

Yup and with the greater processing power of modern PCs you can stream it over the internet much more effciently.

Ok, thanks. I just wanted to make sure that each pc could access and control the cameras/recording directly through the lan and not have to go out through the internet.

 

While the four pc's are networked behind a router, there is no main server so I assume the monitoring software would have to be installed on each pc. Hmm, now that I think about this, I don't understand how this would work with the lan. Is there any limitations to how many pc's one copy of the monitoring software can be installed on?

 

Wayne

[rory 0]

Well Colin has summed just about everything up perfectly ..

 

As to the LAN issue ... your DVR, if it is a PC or a Stand alone, would act as the server ...simply set an internal IP for it, then from the other Home PCs you can access it. If you need outside (WAN) access then you would port forward the router. Ofcourse Note that not all DVRs come with a LAN output ... especially the very budget models.

 

Also, you could use an RF modulator to put the video on the TV channels .. better quality than using the LAN. They come in variations such as 1, 2, 3 and 4 channel ...For Example you could have 2x 4 channel Quad views on 2 channels, and then have a full screen of 2 of the most important cameras on the other 2. Or use multiple Modulators to take up more channels ... in fact you could have a channel for each camera if you really wanted .. well depends on the amount of cameras ..

 

Optionally for even better video quality you could plug the video direct into the TVs. In the event you have a PC DVR, you can either use the Video Card Output (RCA/DVI/SVideo) or in the case of the Geo Vision you could get the combo card to have the higher quality DSP ouput (analogue). They also have loop out cards, or you can even just go out to a muliutplexer, or quad. .. there are many options.

 

As for control, Geo has a Keypad controller, which can control multiple Geo PC DVRs .. then the IR Remote also. The Remote is nice as you can set it up in a non admin user mode so it always stays in full screen .. that way the user using the Remote will only ever control the views, though the admin can login using the Remote, PC Keyboard, or Geo Keypad .. to do what they want, or even administer it over the LAN or WAN (Free Ultra VNC or they have add on software, as well as included Remote Playback Software - and dont forget my free customised live viewer).

 

Anyway .. back to the cameras .. for LPR we went both ways, in the End the Extreme REG cameras are the easiest to install and sicne they are designed for that application, they just work. There are many issues to deal with when setting up for LPR .. one thing in particular are headlights, but also, remember you have to zoom that camera right in on the width of a single car ... so for 2 lanes you will need 2 cameras, and they can only be for LPR and nothing else.. ..

 

Rory

[Wayne02 0]

Well Colin has summed just about everything up perfectly ..

 

As to the LAN issue ... your DVR, if it is a PC or a Stand alone, would act as the server ...simply set an internal IP for it, then from the other Home PCs you can access it. If you need outside (WAN) access then you would port forward the router. Of Note that not all DVRs come with a LAN output ... especially the very budget models.

Yeah, thats one thing about the sentinel/costco unit, it had lan out, ip address, removable hard drive, recorder, hardware functions buttons, 8 camera inputs, sound, cam control, playback options etc and 21" crt all in one unit. Quite handy. I don't recall if it had cable out to hook into the home tv's though.

 

Does viewing cameras on a tv set work ok? I thought the resolution of the tv would not be enough for this task? Of course all five of our tv sets are older models and I don't see us doing the hd tv anytime soon. We probably spend far more time in front of our computers than in front of the tv.

 

Wayne

[rory 0]

Video from an analogue output to a TV can be higher quality than if viewed on a PC Monitor, especially if the PC monitor is an LCD .

 

Modulated to the TV channels is not the same quality as directly plugged into the AV on the TV though ..

 

Back to the cosco unit ... Looking at the Specs, the cameras are ultra budget cameras, low resolution, not low lux, not Day Night (dont believe the hype ), 6 mm narrow 1/4" lens (which may have actually helped with some of the quality issues and even may have helped a little with the IR), not very weather resistant (IP44).

 

Onto the DVR part ... its a dual quad .. meaning its not a multiplexer.. .. which generally means you are getting 720x240 / 4 images. ... so low resolution recording (though they actually say 360x240 and 720x240 in Full mode - a typical spec for the budget DVRs) as well as that is actually sought of rectangular (640x480 is much better than 720x240, then 720x480 is even better), Mjpeg is higher quality compression, but eats up space ... however its a norm on the budget units ..

 

The Monitor looks like the best part ..

 

So definately thats an extremely budget system ... the cheapest DVRs on the market have removeable Hard Drives ... and pretty much all the same functions .. but other than that ... anyway .. alot of them actually use the same exact boards and menu program, as well as the same generic network software ...

 

So thats my little rant on that system .. now lets get you something better ... better doesnt have to be too expensive either ..