It's time to replace the camcorder

[Lloyd 0]

I would like some advise/suggestions on a camera selection.

 

First some background:

 

I live in beautiful rural Wisconsin, and have an 1100 foot long driveway.

 

About 3 or 4 years ago, I noticed the gravel at the end of my driveway was getting torn up alot.

The driveway entrance is on a corner, and on the top of a steep hill.

Some people drive up the hill, and 'punch it' while rounding the corner.

I could also see skid marks on the blacktop.

Where normally this would not bother me too much, I have a school age child that has to walk this route to the neighbors driveway to get picked up by the school bus.

The bus will not stop at the end of my driveway, as this is an unsafe place for it to stop.

The bus will also not drive down my long driveway, because then I would have to provide timely snow removal for its travel, and a place for it to turn around.

 

One day I noticed the skid maks on the blacktop followed a deffinate path.....

They skidded around the corner, into the ditch on the opposite side of the road, and back onto the blacktop.

Which side of the road do I tell my son to walk?

I wanted to know who the idiots were that was doing this.

So I decided to use the resources I had on hand and try to get some info.

I set up a VHS VCR, a tripod, and used an old Sony camcorder that the tape transport was broken .... but it had a 6X zoom and a video out jack.

A sad setup for sure, but it gained me info.

I learned there were real unsafe acts going on, including u-turns/ Y-turns which of course they then had to 'burn out' while leaving.

My home also is surrounded on several sides by DNR (Department of Natural Resourses) land, open to public hunting and hiking.

There is public access parking near too, and this draws in a lot of 'undesirables'.

I have had several instances of vehicles coming partway down my driveway, and tearing up the lawn on the sides as they turned and left.

So I taped and viewed until I thursted for more info.

Then I purchased a better camcorder with 22X optical zoom.

That got me alot more info, better picture, and closer.

This info allowed me to document several of the offenders, and some even got tresspassing fines for it.

I showed the videos to the town authorities, and they posted very large "NO U-TURN NO Y-TURN" signs near my driveway entrance.

They saw a deffinate safety concern.

 

I saw the need for more info .... yep, I was getting hooked.

There were also some nice nature videos that I enjoyed .... deer, fox, coyote, turkeys, etc.

Sometime I'll post my video of a piebald deer, a rarity around here indeed.

I started do the research into the surveillance world.

I knew nothing of cameras, optics, etc .... but I have PC and electrical savy.

Computers and computer building is my hobby, and I am a retired maintenance electrician.

I decided on a GeoVision GV800-8 card, and built a PC for it.

It is running well, and has been since March of this year. ( My only problem was fixed by the wisdom of Rory ... thanks again )

Much nicer then the VCR ... no tapes to change, no squiggly lines to look thru on fast forward, easier to save files, etc.

I really like it.

 

Now it is time to get a little more serious about a camera.

I have a very old b/w surveillance camera and zoom lens that Cooperman was helping me to get going.

( Thanks Cooperman, it's on a shelf for now, but I may try again sometime in the future ... ... I really appreciate all the time you spent helping me )

This camera/lens can not be a replacement for my camcorder ... no enough magnification.

I have been reading this forum for some time and have learned alot.

Now I want to select a decent color surveillance camera to replace the camcorder I have been using.

 

So that is the background... probably more then you need or wanted.

Here are the facts.

The driveway is 1100 feet long from camera to blacktop.

The camera is insde, looking thru a window.

 

 

The camcorder is a Samsung SCW71

 

 

This is what a captured pic looks like, it's about a 50 foot wide FOV.

 

 

The camera faces north, away from the sun, but some of the picture is washed out when the sun hits the grass.

So I know I need a WDR camera.

Eventually I will run underground conduit to within about 100 feet of the blacktop.

At that time I will add cameras that I hope will capture license plates.

I just want a better picture with the same or similar FOV that I presently have.

Right now I capture during all daylight hours, and shut it down at night.

I view all captured video.

I would like to get good enough of a camera to capture at night too, but without IR.

I know that the picture will not be good at night, at that distance.

I also know it may be "not too bad", and get me info if my driveway is torn up at night .... as it has been several times.

 

The lens calculator tells me that with a 1/3" camera, 1100' distance, and a 50' FOV, I need about a 100mm lens.

From reading here, I believe the lens should be auto-iris, aspherical, and glass.

 

what do you guys think about this combination?

 

 

 

 

So, with all of that in mind, and the fact that I don't want to spent over $1000 on camera and lens together, I am open for suggestions/comments/questions.

[G-MEN 0]

Just a thought, have you asked the local authorities to install speedbumps to make those morons slow down?

[CollinR 0]

You gotta get the camera outside, having it look through a window like that is less then ideal. Also dont' get a fixed 100mm lens either.

 

Night will be tough unless you have a light out there, IR or not.

[Lloyd 0]

Just a thought, have you asked the local authorities to install speedbumps to make those morons slow down?

 

LOL ... no, I am sure the town authorities and road crew wouldn't do that.

 

 

You gotta get the camera outside, having it look through a window like that is less then ideal. Also dont' get a fixed 100mm lens either.

 

Night will be tough unless you have a light out there, IR or not.

 

This camera is gonna be inside. More cameras and IR will come in time.

I get a very nice shot of the far 1/3 to 1/2 of the driveway... and I want that.

The lens I show is 20-100mm varifocal, if I am not mistaken, that is not a fixed lens.

( But I'm awful new at this, so correct me if I am wrong )

[rory 0]

Hi, like Colin said, to really utilize that cameras features it should be placed outside ... the image just wont be as good looking through the window ..but that is still up to you, if you do, it will have to be right up against the glass and make a rubber ring to go around the lens and touching the glass to prevent glare from indoor lighting (if it exists).

 

Anyway ... lens wise, thats not going be very good for low light apps .. as it is a telephoto lens and it is F 1.6 .. you would still be able to use alot of IR with it but id really get a Computar Viewfinder and get your exact lens FOV from that, a fixed lens would actually be better for low light and Infrared, but since you maybe more woried about the WDR thing then ... id at least first make sure whether you need 100mm or not .. if you only need 49mm then get a 5-50 as that would be a slightly lower F-stop. If you can, get a Day Night (IR Optimized lens) now as though this aspherical lens would work with IR also, the DN one would be less work in the long run. This one will need to be focused under low lighting BTW.

[kensplace 0]

If its placed outside it would have to be in a housing, and that still looks through glass, or perspex/polycarbonate whatever the housing uses - some housings have worse windows than a house does, especially once they have been in use and cleaned a few times, those second hand pelco housings I got dramatically cut the available light, so much so, Im going to replace the plastic with glass.

 

But at least outdoors in a housing, theres no light reflections from indoor lights...

[Lloyd 0]

"If its placed outside it would have to be in a housing, and that still looks through glass, or perspex/polycarbonate whatever the housing uses"

 

I was going to ask about that....

I was wondering if camera housings used a 'special' glass.

Altho I admit the window I am shooting thru is a thermo pane... two layers of glass.

But I do want this camera to be inside.

No housing to buy, no heater to run, and the shot is exactly what I want.... there will be more cameras in the future.

 

Rory, I like your idea about the rubber ring and near the glass.

I don't have a reflection problem during the daytime, but can get it at night.

The ring might fix all or most of it.

 

Computar Viewfinder = over $200 ..... no can do.

Using the FOV calculators I find on the internet, they all put me near or over the 100mm number.

Now that you see the application and criteria, I am willing to listen to suggested options for camera and lens.

After a very long search on the internet, there are very few choices for a lens in the 100mm area.

Any ideas from you?

Do you feel the choice I showed here would be a large improvement over my camcorder, or am I expecting too much?

Don't send me to Extreme, they have prices that are too high.

If I spend too much, the wife will kill me and I will never get to see the video anyhow.

[rory 0]

Guess that lens should be okay.. otherwise see these Fujinon DN Lenses .. i tink big $$ though ..

http://www.fujinoncctv.com/zoom/day_night.shtml

 

might want to look at something to protect the camera from water spills etc, unless you guys are more careful than i am in my home ..

 

In all its a great camera, i mean a step up would be the pano 1/2" camera .. but then you are in the Extreme range with that and a lens ...

 

Id lend you my viewfinder but it would cost alot to ship it there and back

[cctv_down_under 0]

If you could afford just a little more I would go for a PTZ camera, you can get some pretty big zooms from the latest ones on the market.

 

The reason I suggest this is because I would then wire a PE Beam across the road, this way when the car comes through the beam, the PTZ can be told to either zoom in, or perhaps even use a pre programed tour based on the average speed that is required, you might not just get a snapshot, you may get soime usefull images, also using a PTZ will allow you to put the camera on tour on all other times around your property, so your wife might like the protection it would provide, but lastly the best part is it will Auto focus for you so you can have diferent views very fast without having to muck around with focus etc.

 

By the time you buy a zoom lens and pano camera you would be very close to affording a decent PTZ

[cctv_down_under 0]

http://www.austarsecurity.com.au/images/stories/brochures/SpeedDomeBrochure.pdf

 

Here is a prtty cheap option, I was sure they had some weird new 44x one but it may not be on the site yet

[CollinR 0]

I've used those with luck, never heard of iFCS though the ones I used were obviously OEM-able.

[CollinR 0]

Lloyd, would you mind posting a pic of your home from the drive?

 

 

I ask because I have installed a couple of systems very simular to this. Mine have been to control gate access over 1000' away where the customer didn't want to pay for bured cable but wanted to know who was at the gate (sometimes facial). Depending on the design of the home you can mount a housing inside the attic that gets the shot without making your home look like you are paranoid. A gable with vent makes for almost total invisability, protection and possibly a clear shot.

 

 

You could also use construction paper to black out the remainder of the pane to help with glare.

[Lloyd 0]

Lloyd, would you mind posting a pic of your home from the drive?

 

Sure ... it's not a very good shot, cause I'm looking South and into the sun today.

Remember I said my video camera faces North...away from the sun.

It's located is at the top of that tall narrow window just left of the front door.

The door and window are recessed back a bit from the front of the house.

It makes it a nice little shaddowed location.

 

 

As you can see, there is no gable facing the driveway to put the camera in.

The gable above the garage will not work, cause it will not see the driveway end.

I have lots of trees on both sides of the driveway.

Really, I am totally happy with the location of the camera as it is.

I see just what I want to from this camera .... position wise.

The height is perfect... outside I can walk under it, and do not block the view.

It looks straight down the drive, giving me a nice view on both sides.

In the house, it is not in the way at all.

I can walk under it, and nothing is sitting on the floor .... like a tripod.

 

As far as getting power and cables to near the end of the driveway, that may come next year.

Like I mentioned, I am a retired electrician ... I can run conduit and cables.

I also own a full size tractor loader/backhoe.

I am all set to go.

But one thing at a time.

This security/nature hobby of mine can't become a bank buster for me.

I live on a pension.

 

This is camera one that I am trying to bring up the standards on.

It is for driveway 'overview' ... to see the wildlife, and to tell me what is going on at the end of the driveway and the first 1/3.

True, I will want more cameras nearer the end on the drive, but I want this one right where it is.

I have a GeoVision GV-800 - 8 card.

I have seven more inputs to fill in the furure.

I figure 3 more near the end of the driveway that I hope to be able to read vehicle plates.

The other 4 will be in the house, and run when a sensor network says "INTRUDER" during my absence.

I've had one breakin during my 28 years living at this location.

If it happens again, I want 4 cameras recording it.

And yes, I have come up with my own special way of hiding my 'GeoVision PC', but have to do it yet.

That will happen someplace along the way.

But this all takes time and money.

I've thought alot of this out, and this forum has helped me too.

Again, I wish to thank all who given their time to input their knowledge.

 

But for now, I am working on 'camera 1'.

It looks like I will be trying the Panasonic WV-CP484 and the Tamron 13VG20100AS-SQ 20-100mm lens.....

but I am still willing to listen to other suggestions from the knowlege bank.

 

EDIT: For anyone interested, here is a link to a 15 second video of the piebald deer I mentioned earlier.

It's not very good cause it was almost dark.

I captured this on the very first day that I got the GeoVision card working.

Piebald deer

[CollinR 0]

This security/nature hobby of mine can't become a bank buster for me.

 

Thats one of the reasons I am asking all these questions, like most hobbists you probably have alot more time then $. I just can't see spending the kind of money you are talking about on a camera that will in a less then ideal veiwing position and might be deemed pointless in the future (the lens anyway).

 

For nature viewing your camcorder is working fine?

 

 

It might be better to hold off, bury the cable and then use a less expensive camera in a more optimum position for auto traffic.

[Lloyd 0]

"For nature viewing your camcorder is working fine?"

 

Well, it's working, but I would like to have it better.

(1) There is alot of white-out with the sun hitting the surfaces, and a WDR camera should fix that.

(2) I get absolutly nothing of value trying to record after dark.

Towards dark when I can still see the end of the driveway, the camera is recording black ... and headlights are just a ball of white.

I'm hoping the panasonic will do better.

(3) Every morning when I turn on the camcorder, I have to press buttons on it to turn off the OSD ( on screen display ) .. otherwise it is recorded along with the picture.

Of course this means touching the camera and maybe changing the positioning a little by accident.

So I always have to check that it is still aimed where I want it.

(4) The lens is fairly cheap really ... only $136 delivered.

 

Do you feel that I will not see improvements over what I am getting from my camcorder?

[CollinR 0]

I think you will see an improvement from the lens but overall what you do see won't be worth the $ it took. Especially once you put up other cameras.

 

 

If it were mine... (1st I'd run the cable out there but assuming not.)

 

 

Here is some reasoning.

 

 

It seems to me as though the headlights from the cars are on the same level as the lens on a camera in the current mounting. Thats not good for seeing much of anything of a car at night with it's headlights on. Moving the camera to the roof level will allow it to see over the headlight beams. There may be some camera that can deal with direct headlights but from 1000' I kinda doubt it, check extreme's site. Changing the angle between the grass and the camera ~may~ also change how the sun has been reflected back into the camera making WDR unneeded, might make it worse though too.

 

 

I put IR flood in the pic but if you want it to see 1000' out you are going to extreme and you already expressed you opinion of their pricing (I TOTALLY AGREE, they are nutty $$$). Would there by chance be an overhead powerline near by? Where I live $6/mo will get you a light on their pole, if there is one remotely close to your drive that $6 would be the best $6 spent on the whole dang project.

 

 

 

I would relocate your wildlife viewing location to someplace optimum for the camcorder (or cheap CCTV cameras in the future), maybe 150' feet out or beside or behind. Then you can might be able to use IR on the wildlife. Oh yeah and BAIT! The trouble with wildlife is they don't pose too well, put out some bait to get them into the frame you already have. It's much more difficult (and $$$) to capture wildlife from 1000' when some corn could get them into the 200' range where the camcorder you already have would probably be great.

[Lloyd 0]

OK, so my WV-CP484 arrived today.

I see in the instructions it says, "Do not use a transformer larger then 10 VA".

It does not mention what size to use, but I guess a 10 VA would be proper.

What is the reason for nothing bigger?

[kensplace 0]

Could be a number of reasons, less powerful transformers reduce the risk of shorts causing nasty damage or fire. Less current to give installers a nasty ground loop shock, and the most likely one would be a transformer when not under load produces a higher voltage output than one that is under load.

 

A higher VA transformer is going to usually put out a higher no load voltage than a low rated transformer.

 

Maybe the camera does not like the no load voltage that surges in when first powered up on a higher va transformer. Or maybe the cam is not fused internally, and relies on the transformer fuse blowing to protect it (unlikely though).

 

Plus using a higher rated one means spending more money on a transformer that is going to waste most of its potential....

[rory 0]

It should say the power requirements in the specs. .

[kensplace 0]

410ma for dc, and for transformer use (ac) its 4.7w at 24v

 

Funnily enough, I just did a google search for that cam, and picked a supplier at random (www.polarisusa.com), they had a transformer they recommended for that cam,it was a 20 VA model - double what pano rates the camera at for safety - guess that supplier never read the manual.......

 

I would follow pano's advice and not use anything larger than 10va, they will have a good reason for putting that warning in the manual, better to be safe than sorry.

[Lloyd 0]

Thanks for the advice guys.

It all sounds like good reasons.

I'll use a 10VA.

[CollinR 0]

So???

[Lloyd 0]

So???

 

Ok .... I ordered a 10VA ( 24VAC ).... order confirmation came in right away.

I haven't heard from them since ... nothing in the mail, nothing UPS, nothing email.

I sent them email ..... no response.

Not good.

 

On the productive side, I got the camera up and running yesterday.

The wife is out of town until Sunday afternoon.

Shhhhhh ..... she doen't know I bought it yet.

 

So I found an old 12VDC power supply around. ( 13.8 VDC @ 4 amps )

Under no load a voltmeter says 16.52 VDC.

With camera attached it says 14 VDC or so.

Perfect ... I am using it.

I hooked it up to the 12 VDC terminals on the camera.

 

I moved the PC near the camera, so I could see the results of my learning the menus.

I'm learning.

I put the LCD monitor in native resolution.

The focus and back focus seem to be easy to ajust.

I know, I could do a better job if I hooked up a CRT to it.

I get better color from this camera.

The lens mm size selection was proper for the FOV I wanted.

I have a very slightly larger FOV then I had with the camcorder.

Close enough.

 

So far, towards evening, it appears as tho the picture fades to black sooner then the camcorder does.

Doesn't look good for dusk/dark images, but you guys warned me of that.

I am not sure if it is switching to B/W or not.

I'll be running thru the settings again ( and again ) in the next few days.

When I got it set the best I can get it, I'll post a pic or two.

[Lloyd 0]

I had some problems at first.

Never set up a real cam before.

It seemed like the B/W mode wouldn't kick in automatically, but then it started working.

I had to get a CRT hooked up to do the set up.

Finally I decided to set up the camcorder too, and record them both for comparison purposes.

So the camcorder is right under the Panaconic by about 3 feet.

Here are some comparison shots.

 

I'll be messing with it in the future some time soon, trying to get it a little better.

The whites seem a little too bright yet for one thing.

 

3.7 meg file download .....

 

[CollinR 0]

Excellent photo comparison! So what about your opinion?