Suggestions for new configuration in our surveillance room

[MetalguitarJames 0]

I'm a surveillance tech with a tribal casino here in california. Once we get our new dvr system and virtual matrix in we were thinking about setting up 3 workstations that have our PC's, Pelco Keyboards, 2 LCD's, and 1 wall mounted 42" plasma screen per station. After doing some research it's become apparent that there are quite a bit of factors that need to be taken care of to make this work. The matrix will be:

 

Pelco CM9760L-160X16 Matrix Terminating 160 In x 16 Out 120VAC w/ Loop Outs

 

Pelco CM9760-KBD Keyboard Desktop 120VAC (Requires 1 per station)

 

Pelco CM9760-DT4-X Matrix Data Translator RS-232-RS422 230 VAC.

 

What I need is suggestions if it's better to stay with all LCD's or have 3 plasmas per station with 2 LCD's. Also what brand or model number of the Plasma's or LCD's. I've been reading into the Contrast Ratio's of the LCD's and also the response time. I know that some factors include the resolution of the cameras and monitors. We have a mixture of cameras here that include Honeywell KD6's, Honeywell KD-5's, Sony minidomes, and JVC stills. Our DVR's will most likely be Netvision 64 Channel 4CIF 30FPS 12TB DVR's through bulldogdigital.com . If there are any thoughts on how to make this work or what we should do in terms of monitors please let me know. I am pc savy. The cctv thing is new to me and I'm always learning new things. Any reading material would definately help. If you choose to want to send me an email you can at jmyers@sirgc.com

 

Thank you all in advance,

 

James Myers

[kensplace 0]

Three workstations, is that one person monitoring each workstation?

 

If so with 160 cameras thats over 50 cameras per operator, which is way to many cameras for one person to handle with any degree of control/accurate observation.

[MetalguitarJames 0]

We actually only have a total of 103 cameras at the moment. We just wanted the expandability to be able to go up to that considering that we will have a 4 story hotel built on in about 2 years or so. That is 1 operator per station. We currently have 16 crt monitors and we cover our small casino quite well. Any ideas on the Plasmas and LCD's?

[kensplace 0]

Cant really help much on the monitor front, I always prefer crt for tv/cctv as it just seems to look much better imo. Maybe someone else can help there.

 

Just drooling over the thought of a 64 channel dvr, would love a bit of kit like that, 12tb storage, wow....

 

I take it they are 30fps per camera, not 30fps total?

[rory 0]

Definately LCD over Plasma ..

 

are you asking for us to mention a particular model?

Whats the budget ..? Panasonic or OEM type? Ive used Olivia LCDs from Tiger with good results .. 1600:1 Contrast Ratio (or better) 1366x768 resolutions .. they are actually LCD TV's but work just as good .. and you can run them in 1280x1024 or 1024x768 fine unlike most LCD Monitors. ..

 

26" models are dead cheap, 32" models are only $100 more .. and then they have the 42" models ... depends what you want to spend .. they have the HDMI inputs but you can use a DVI-HDMI adaptor ..

[G-MEN 0]

We changed from analog to digital 3 years ago and updated the surveillance room with a new 4 person work station console and LCD monitors. We got the 20 of the ADMNLCD20RK from American Dynamics. They are nice, but I really miss the clearity of the CRT's.

[griffonsystems 0]

lcd over plasma for cctv because the clarity will be better and no worry of burnin that will degrade the picture clarity over time... have your dvrs setup with dvi/hdmi output if you are connecting them to the 42inch lcd

[MetalguitarJames 0]

Yes it is 30FPS on all 64 channels at 4CIF playback and review and 12TB of storage. The bummer is that it isn't raid at all. There is a redundant power supply though. They are lettered drives instead of striped all the way across. I will mirror the main hardrive that has the OS and Software for the DVR for backup. They are all hot-swapable 750GB Seagate SATA's. We only need to keep our footage 7 days per the MICS.

 

Rory,

 

Thankyou for your suggestions about the LCD's over Plasmas. I am pretty scared about image burn. That's one thing I definately don't want to happen. I'm just trying to come up with a good configuration for our surveillance room so we can free up some space. We are quite cluttered as many surveillance rooms are. Like I said, we have a total of 103 cameras right now and we will have the expandibility to go up to 160 because of the Hotel. I know it's kind of a odd question but does anyone know about like the minimum system requirements in aspect to LCD's with CCTV i.e. Resolution, Contrast Ration, Response time? What does LCD have over Plasma in CCTV? I know that you know your stuff Rory. We have a $12,000.00 budget for monitors. We currently have a total of 16 CRT monitors in a massive rack/frame all Honewell. 4 20" CRT's on the bottom and 6 15" CRT's in the middle and top. We have two Ultrak controller keyboards for our ptz's. We will have 3 pelco keyboards after our new system comes in. I want to make 3 seperate workstations that have our PC's, Keyboards, and possibly 2 smaller LCD Monitors (19"-22") on the actuall desks each. If anyone has a better idea of coming up with for what I want to do I'm all ears! Thankyou for all of your responses! It is appreciated!

 

James Myers

[rory 0]

Hi, well first need to know what resolution your DVR is .. 1024x768, 1280x1024, or other?

 

If PC based normally would be one of the above .. the 19" Monitor would probably be the best image as far as LCDs go ... Search for this model

 

Viewsonic VP930B-3 / 19" / 8ms / SXGA 1280 x 1024 / 1300:1 Contrast Ratio / DVI·VGA / Black / LCD Monitor

 

That would get you around half your budget for 20 of them ..

 

You probably first need to decide on the size, do you even have room for anything larger? How close the operators are to the monitors, 4 ways or 9 way views, etc .. someone else more experienced with surveillance rooms and operators would be able to answer all this ..

 

If you are looking for a couple larger monitors.. .

and to keep more within budget for larger monitors ...

course these arent Panasonics but havent had any issues with the ones we've used down here ...

 

Olevia 327V 27" 1366x768 / 8ms / 1600:1 Contrast Ratio / HDMI / PC Input / LCD Display with Speakers and Stand - No Tuner

 

Olevia 332H 32" 1366x768 / 8ms / 1600:1 Contrast Ratio / HDMI / PC Input / LCD Display with Speakers and Stand - No Tuner

 

Olevia 342i 42" 1366x768 / 8ms / 1600:1 Contrast Ratio / HDMI / LCD Display with Speakers and Stand - No Tuner

[Intercity Alarms 0]

Get rid of the 42 lcd and use a projector. I know of a few major casino's right now getting rid of their crt walls and using a projector

[MetalguitarJames 0]

Ok,

 

We are going to be going with the LCD's instead of Plasmas by far after doing more research and on Rory's reccomendations. Next week me, the lead tech, and our Executive Director will be going to Ohio to check out the DVR system at the source to make sure that everything is going to be smooth. I'm hoping that our damn good price quote isn't too good to be true. We'll find out when we get there. Thank you everyone for your input. It is appreciated!

 

James Myers

[CollinR 0]

Get rid of the 42 lcd and use a projector. I know of a few major casino's right now getting rid of their crt walls and using a projector

 

 

I would at least look at some.

[survtech 0]

Three workstations, is that one person monitoring each workstation?

 

If so with 160 cameras thats over 50 cameras per operator, which is way to many cameras for one person to handle with any degree of control/accurate observation.

 

Not in a casino. Typically you will have far more cameras per operator because they don't watch all cameras simultaneously. They watch critical cameras and record the rest. The casino where I work has 3 operators and over 800 cameras.

[survtech 0]

Get rid of the 42 lcd and use a projector. I know of a few major casino's right now getting rid of their crt walls and using a projector

 

While projectors are impressive, their resolution is not any better than a good LCD or plasma. If you put a lot of cameras on them, each will be at very low resolution.

[WirelessEye 0]

It's all about cost, and when you pay the "cost". Projectors offer the cheapest largest displays initially. Bulb replacement generally occurs ~2000 hours (if you're lucky) and is $450+ each time. Figure on around 5 projector bulbs per year (which equals about $2,500/yr in operational costs). Figure on more bulbs (~8 bulbs @ $4,000/yr) if you run 24/7 (which most likely you will) as the constant heat wears them out faster.

 

At the same time, a decent projector and a 150" high contrast screen will "only" cost $3,000-$4,500 wholesale. You could easily run 36-49 feeds per screen and still have an *ok* size.

 

On the other hand you could get some 50" plasma's with much more up-front cost, but with next to nil maintenence cost for the 6-8 years the screen will last.

 

Really it's a trade-off, but they do make very good projectors that have great contrast (DLP is excellent) and also high resolution.

[survtech 0]

At the same time, a decent projector and a 150" high contrast screen will "only" cost $3,000-$4,500 wholesale. You could easily run 36-49 feeds per screen and still have an *ok* size.

 

At 36-49 images per screen, let's do the math:

Let's say 48 images and an 82" screen for the sake of simplicity.

Assume a screen size of 82" (72"w x 40.5" h) in 16:9 aspect ratio.

You could fit 8w(x)6h 4:3 aspect ratio (standard CCTV) images on the screen.

Each image would be 9"w x 6-3/4"h. which is about 11" diagonal.

 

Since the maximum resolution available on any set today is 1920x1080, each image would have a resolution of 240h x 180v. A decent 12" monitor should be able to see at least 640x480 resolution so a projector would have only slightly better than 1/3 the resolution of 12" monitors.

 

And increasing the size of the screen to 150" would only make each image larger, the resolution would not improve. With that resolution, there's absolutely no way you could identify the value of cards on a table, let alone the suit.

 

Also, if you want the absolute best resolution for casino use with analog cameras, a 20" to 21" CRT is still your best bet. LCD displays don't reproduce images quite as well as CRTs (although they have improved tremendously) and even the best LCDs have problems de-interlacing NTSC video. As far as I know, all LCD monitors are progressive scan.

 

Plasmas can be subject to burn-in so I wouldn't use them for monitors that would be looking at quad images or static scenes. They do have near-CRT quality resolution, though.

Edited March 24, 2007 by Guest

[VST_Man 1]

just thinking out of the box.....has anyone ever tried to use video goggles? They have become extremely "nice" and maybe something to look at?

 

elsewise, I'd stick with LCD...................

[lynndiwagon 0]

You sound like a pretty good IT guy. Is it too late to switch courses? We passed up Pelco for an NVR/PC based system w/over 850 cameras. Virtual matrix, etc. I also agree, video walls are OUT. There are several good software packages, i.e. Genetec, Petards UVMS that will get you past the DVR curve. I'm thinking DVR's will be like VCR's in the near future....IMHO. We just finished a new casino that's 100% IP. It's a IT guys dream.... Good luck.

[survtech 0]

You sound like a pretty good IT guy. Is it too late to switch courses? We passed up Pelco for an NVR/PC based system w/over 850 cameras. Virtual matrix, etc. I also agree, video walls are OUT. There are several good software packages, i.e. Genetec, Petards UVMS that will get you past the DVR curve. I'm thinking DVR's will be like VCR's in the near future....IMHO. We just finished a new casino that's 100% IP. It's a IT guys dream.... Good luck.

 

I agree that DVRs with analog cameras are on their way out (sort of like VCRs in the mid-nineties). That said, my investigations into IP for casino use ran into major snags - low frame rates at >640x480 (Axis IP cameras for one), huge storage requirements (compare your 600TB for 1000 cameras vs. our 250TB for 1024 cameras; all at 30fps). Storage is still a major cost factor.

 

A major problem is incorporating existing legacy systems. It's might make sense to build a full IP-based system from scratch, but at many casinos you'll have to accomodate a changeover from analog to IP in an existing system. Replacing 1000(+) cameras simultaneously would be a major pain and very disruptive in a working 7/24 casino environment.

 

Just installing the infrastructure would be a nightmare. Many casinos don't have IDF closets in suitable locations for the distribution and power networks. Our MIS Department has had nightmares staying within the 100 meter maximum for ethernet for the slot machines. Surveillance would have the same problem and then some.

 

Also, how would you accomodate a casino with an existing DVR system? Our system will only record certain manufacturers' IP cameras and many are too physically big to fit inside existing dome enclosures (Axis again). That means replacing most in-ceiling back boxes with 14" monstrosities.

 

In all, I think that casinos should be aware of, but wary of IP-based systems for now. We all know it is coming but us old-timers have learned from bitter experience that cutting edge technology can come with a very high price.

[lynndiwagon 0]

I'm sure you know what you're doing and have taken everything into consideration. Just offering another view. We are using about 600 analog cameras because at the time we couldn't find a IP camera that could handle low lighting on slots. Analog cameras are converted to digital w/IP address before being put on the 1GB video LAN. You're certainly right about data closets. We had to make sure IP cameras were within 350' utilizing CAT6. All analog cameras were connected via CAT6 and NVT's. This way we could migrate to all IP when cameras available. The new IQinvision cameras will handle low light and on their web site you can see the casino pictures from our casino. In any event....good luck.

 

Lynn Wagoner

[WirelessEye 0]

At the same time, a decent projector and a 150" high contrast screen will "only" cost $3,000-$4,500 wholesale. You could easily run 36-49 feeds per screen and still have an *ok* size.

 

At 36-49 images per screen, let's do the math:

Let's say 48 images and an 82" screen for the sake of simplicity.

Assume a screen size of 82" (72"w x 40.5" h) in 16:9 aspect ratio.

You could fit 8w(x)6h 4:3 aspect ratio (standard CCTV) images on the screen.

Each image would be 9"w x 6-3/4"h. which is about 11" diagonal.

 

Since the maximum resolution available on any set today is 1920x1080, each image would have a resolution of 240h x 180v. A decent 12" monitor should be able to see at least 640x480 resolution so a projector would have only slightly better than 1/3 the resolution of 12" monitors.

 

And increasing the size of the screen to 150" would only make each image larger, the resolution would not improve. With that resolution, there's absolutely no way you could identify the value of cards on a table, let alone the suit.

 

Also, if you want the absolute best resolution for casino use with analog cameras, a 20" to 21" CRT is still your best bet. LCD displays don't reproduce images quite as well as CRTs (although they have improved tremendously) and even the best LCDs have problems de-interlacing NTSC video. As far as I know, all LCD monitors are progressive scan.

 

Plasmas can be subject to burn-in so I wouldn't use them for monitors that would be looking at quad images or static scenes. They do have near-CRT quality resolution, though.

 

An 82" screen is much smaller than a 150" screen. 36 feeds on a 150" screen would make each feed ~25". More than acceptable for most, and much larger than you are going to get with even a multiplexed LCD setup. While the resolution would be lower than a multi-LCD video wall, you would certainly be able to see player hands. While lower resolution, it is still more than sufficient and you do not have to squint to see like you would on a 12" LCD.

 

We have absolutely no problem seeing license plates from 1/4 mile away under the conditions stated above.

 

Also, the effective number of pixels on target has just as much to do with the setup as the resolution of the viewing setup.

[survtech 0]

An 82" screen is much smaller than a 150" screen. 36 feeds on a 150" screen would make each feed ~25". More than acceptable for most, and much larger than you are going to get with even a multiplexed LCD setup. While the resolution would be lower than a multi-LCD video wall, you would certainly be able to see player hands. While lower resolution, it is still more than sufficient and you do not have to squint to see like you would on a 12" LCD.

 

We have absolutely no problem seeing license plates from 1/4 mile away under the conditions stated above.

 

Also, the effective number of pixels on target has just as much to do with the setup as the resolution of the viewing setup.

I'm not suggesting that any casino use 12" monitors. In fact, I recommend at least 19", depending on the distance between the viewers and the screens.

 

Still with 36 images on a 1920 x 1080 screen, your resolution would be approximately CIF (320 x 240). That's approximately the same resolution as VHS. I seriously doubt if you could see suits of cards on a fixed table cam. It doesn't matter if the screen is 150" or 1500", pixels are pixels. It's tough enough to see with 720 x 480 (D1).

 

Resolution is far more important than size.

 

IMO, the only thing a large projector is good for in a casino surveillance room is to impress the visitors.

[MetalguitarJames 0]

Update!

 

Well me and my supervisor have gone to the Pelco CM9760 Matrix Training. It was very informative on how how to actually run and program the matrix and keyboards. This is what we've got now.

 

(2) 12 TB 64Channel DVR's with hot swappable 750GB Seagate HDD's. H.264 and 30FPS.

 

(1) 8 TB 16 Channel DVR with hot swappable 750GB Seagate HDD's. H.264 and 30 FPS.

 

DVR's can be found here: http://www.dvrsystems.net/howitsdone.htm

 

 

 

(1) Pelco CM9760 Matrix 160x16 w/ loop outs.

 

(3) CM9760-KBD (Keyboards)

 

( Pelco Genex 16 Channel Color Duplex Multiplexers

 

(1) Pelco Genex Multiplexer Server

 

(2) Pelco Code Distribution Units (For the PTZ's)

 

Matrix equipment can be found here: http://www.pelco.com

 

 

 

(3) 19" Acer LCD's

(3) 42" LCD's

(6) BNC to VGA converters (For LCD Monitors)

 

Converters can be found here: http://www.q5usa.com/proddetail.asp?prod=STI%2DVGAC&cat=78&gclid=CMCypoa1rosCFQzDYgodiDqjUg

 

I tested out a converter yesterday on our Current Ultrak Max-1000 Matrix, and sadly there is a big issue. It takes approximately 3.5 seconds for the picture to come up every time I switch to another camera on our keyboards (These are not PC keyboards. They are Ultrak Ultrakey keyboards for controlling PTZ's and calling up cameras on different monitors). I have it hooked up like this:

 

RG-59 75 OHM BNC cable from monitor out from matrix into the bnc to vga converter

 

vga cable to LCD monitor.

 

It's just like the equivalent of changing the resolution on your PC LCD monitor and waiting for it to adjust. Now all of our cameras are just analog cameras. None of them are IP based. The converter puts out the image as a 640X480 resolution every time. The picture quality is great. It's just that every time I switch to a different camera (i.e. calling up a camera with the keyboard) the screen goes black for 3.5 seconds and then the picture comes up. I then tested this on a CRT monitor and it came up a little quicker. I'm wondering if there is anyway to program this monitor to just read 640X480 constantly to see if I can prevent a 3.5 second black screen from coming up between switching to different cameras. I can't accept a 3.5 second black screen. This will prevent us from properly being able to track people in our casino. If anyone has experience with this please let me know! You can also email me at jmyers@diamondmountaincasino.com

 

Thanks in advance!

 

James Myers

[rory 0]

Hi James,

 

Looks interesting. I take it you are just using the PC DVR for recording, not actually operating that, but operating the Matrix System right?

[MetalguitarJames 0]

Hi James,

 

Looks interesting. I take it you are just using the PC DVR for recording, not actually operating that, but operating the Matrix System right?

 

That's correct rory. The way the current system is running the cameras run directly into Honeywell fusion dvr's and loops out of there into a Ultrak Max-1000 matrix switch. Our new system once we install it will go directly into the Pelco Multiplexers, loop out of there into the Pelco Matrix, loop out of the matrix into the PC-Based DVR's. BTW thank you for the rapid reply!

 

James