New CCTV information website

[Cooperman 0]

Just discovered a new CCTV website - well worth a look!

 

http://www.doktorjon.co.uk

[rory 0]

There is some good learning info there, especially the history of CCTV.

Thanks for the link.

 

Rory

[cctv_down_under 0]

He is very biased toward Analogue though, has some very incorrect info on DVR's as well, but everyone has their own opinion

[rory 0]

i didnt go that deep, just the history part. One thing though, he or someone promoting him is spamming the news forums with the same thing over and over and over! Doesnt really make someone want to go to his site.

[Cooperman 0]

I've been having a bit more of a look around.

There's a heck of a lot of stuff on this site; thought the system design info was interesting. I've been using the site index to navigate around, but I don't think I've even scratched the surface yet.

 

Anybody else come across a CCTV info site like this?

[xmichael 0]

Thanks, I quite enjoyed browsing this site.

 

Mike

[rory 0]

The DVR section seems to be out of date though, like mentioning not to buy combined mux/dvrs in one, which from using both, the all in one records much better & faster than the seperate mux and seperate DVR. Not to mention that the all in one has more features than using 2 seperate units.

[Thomas 0]

That and I don't think anyone ever explained raid to him.

[cctv_down_under 0]

Yeh that was what I was talking about, he seems to not realise that you dont have to write over your data.. there is a lot he does not know about DVR he didnt even mention any features.. just limitations and was incorrect wioth most of what he said!

[rory 0]

also, he claims to get 30 days you need 2TB, but it depends on how you record, number of cameras, etc. Im getting almost 3 months from 3 cameras on a 4 channel 40Gb DVR, with motion only recording. I get 28 days on a time lapse always recording mode, seperate mux and DVR, 320GB, with 8 cameras, 5pps. Im getting 9 days with the same set up (seperate units) with 20pps, 13 cameras. all in highest quality mode.

 

Concidering the quality of a VCR tape, unless you are recording near real time, when multiplexed, it makes more sense to 'take the chance' and go with a DVR recording at higher quality. In one of my jobs, we had 2 VCRs linked together, 2 hour mode with 8 hour tapes, when one stopped the other stared recording, so we got 16 hours of 'near' real time, as it was still multiplexed. It meant changing tapes every day. But we were getting the best quality we could get with 10 cameras using a VCR. Searching through those tapes were like pulling teeth!

 

The Time lapse Digital Tape Recorders were out at that time, and we looked at that as an option, but for nearly the price of the current DVR systems, was not worth it. They were still limited in number of features, especially remote video over the internet. Eg. $1500 for the Digital VCR plus $1500 for a 10 channel multiplexer, not worth it. Same price for a 320GB single channel DVR with a 16 channel Mux. So we went that route and it was well worth it. 2 1/2 years later, still going, no maintenance required, no going back. Only 1 firmware update to the DVR which was done remotely over the internet.

 

Another thing to consider when using time lapse recorders, is maintenance, cleaning. VCRs still have their place. I have had to on numerous occasions had to save video evidence for police and the owner, and I used both CD (could have been a DVD but they didnt have it) and a simple Home VCR using the CCTV monitor output. Now we have even more options, simple ones like Compac Flash, ofcourse DVD, and many firewire units with multiple types of back up hardware.

 

Then there are the many forms of archiving which can take you 10 years or more depending on how much $$ you have or how large your survillence room is. With DVRs you are not stuck with what you originally bought, with most of them at least, you can easily add on SCSI archiving devices, or others.

 

In all, the quality you get from a DVR, is much greater than a time lapse VCR, and requires less or no maintenance and is just as secure, depending on which type you use. Some DVRs are the same price as a time lapse VCR, for example GE has a VDR, which is essectially a Digital VCR but no tapes, and it has Compac Flash backup, and is the same price of a time lapse VCR. For a couple hundred $$ more you can get a multiplexed DVR for multiple inputs, all in one unit, or build your own PC based using your PC.

[rory 0]

Yeh that was what I was talking about, he seems to not realise that you dont have to write over your data.. there is a lot he does not know about DVR he didnt even mention any features.. just limitations and was incorrect wioth most of what he said!

 

He's old school CCTV, has not probably got too involved in the PC side of it, including remote video. Even alot of the Casino Gaming boards still use matrix and VCRs.

[Cooperman 0]

Hate to be a party pooper, but their are a few comments here that are kind of bugging me ... a lot!!

 

First off, the directory where I originally found the site, describes it as "A unique information resource, detailing the use and application of Closed Circuit Television ..."

According to the home page, the guy who put this site togethor is describing it as a "...CCTV information resource", not an indepth guide to Digital CCTV. I've been through quite a number of pages, and whilst it's claimed on the homepage that there are around 350 pages on the site, my impression is that's probably the case.

 

So far I've only found around half a dozen pages relating to Digital, and the index suggests that the Network section is "under development".

 

I hate to state the obvious, but as a UK based consultant myself, I can relate to a lot of things on this site, but a lot of the comments that have been posted here, have absolutely no relevance to what actually goes on in England.

 

It's a fact that our prices are generally way above the United States, analogue massively outsells digital, and as one example of 'space saving' goes, using motion detected recording instead of time lapse, would almost certainly render the recordings inadmissable in an English Court.

 

If their's one thing I absolutely loath and detest its spamming, so the thought of a fellow Brit. consultant doing this is extremely disturbing. I actually did a Google search on news groups to see just how bad it is, and you know what .... I only found TWO postings by this guy, one in uk.legal and one in alt.security, both of which were offering quite good advice in the form of replies to particular questions.

 

Is it my imagination or do some of these comments seem like its 'let's Bash the Brits' week?

 

Mike enjoyed it, I think for what it is, it's well worth a look.

Whoever built this site has obviously put a lot of work into it, and if all we can do is pick it to pieces on the strength of half a dozen pages, I can't say I'm impressed.

How many of us could actually put something like this togethor?

 

Anybody else think the same?

[rory 0]

when i talk of spamming this is what I am talking about:

 

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=471b4166.0406301141.9de3588%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.security.alarms%26start%3D25

 

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=20040630182151.12194.00000958%40mb-m01.aol.com&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.security.alarms%26start%3D25

 

Nothing to do with the entire info he has listed. I dont however see how real time motion detected digital recordings could not be submissible in court in the UK. It only records when there is motion. Its pretty simple, it is still recording the criminal in their act. Its got nothing to do with the claim that it is an indepth guide into digital video surveillance, I myself posted due to untruths regards to certain text posted on DVRs and recording times and quality. Perhaps he has not used the same equipment that I have, anything is possible. Personally I am one of the few on this forum that still supports old school CCTV.

 

Yes they put some work into the text, but non into the design.

 

Also, you mentioned being a Brit, so am I. I live in the Bahamas right now, and we are twice as expensive as the UK! The local Casinos still have 1000+ time lapse VCRs

[Cooperman 0]

Rory

 

When you talk about spamming, you had me worried.

The guy that started the thread posted across 4 newsgroups, so all replies were also posted to each. The two messages shown are 23 seconds apart, so it hardly looks like an attempt to take over the world. Bad manners maybe, but hardly a hanging offence.

 

Regarding the motion triggered approach to recording, the technique itself is as old as the hills; the problem from a legal perspective, is that a clever barrister (their is another name for them, but I can't repeat it in polite company), can easily argue that without a visual record of all times, it is technically possible that the system may have failed or operated unreliably, and therefore other persons may have been present at other times who were not recorded.

 

This information is straight from a legal bods mouth, and I'm hardly equipped to argue with him. Another one for the courts to decide on the day.

 

I can't say that I was that overwhelmed by the sites design, but to be honest, I was more interested in the content.

 

From what I've seen so far of specific products discussed on the 'forum', a lot of it is not readily available here in the UK.

 

Maybe I should move to the Bahamas; life back here certainly isn't what it used to be!!

[rory 0]

 

You dont want to move here trust me, its third world, in fact im probably going to end up moving back to the Uk eventually, my brother is leaving here in October to go to London to live, my parents will probably eventually go back also. I have to make some money and get some more training in software programming before I move back. If I do i will probably try to go back to Exeter where I used to live.

 

Rory

[AVCONSULTING 0]

Your motion detection information is also a problem in the U.S. and many DVRs have a way to record both time and event. You can set up the camera to record say 1 frame every 2 seconds to have a continous record of video, but when motion is detected it will jump to 5 fps(or whatever you decide on) in order to get more FPS. This way you can save hard drive space but still prove the DVR was recording during the event time. Sadly most embedded systems don't have this feature, and not even all PC based. It is a very valuable feature. Rory, why don't you move to Turks and Caicos. That seems to be a nice place.

[rory 0]

All the Kalatel Standalones have that feature.

[Cooperman 0]

Rory

I'll take your advice about the Bahamas, but I'm rapidly running out of attractive alternatives. Living in Exeter is undoubtedly a more agreeable option than London, and a heck of a lot cheaper too (don't know when you were last here, but you're going to need every penny if you come back!).

 

Mind you, you'd probably be shocked if you found out how much they've spent on street CCTV down in the south west of England.

 

On the subject of 'hybrid' recording, the option of continuous low performance 'time lapse', triggered into high performance/fast uprate under alarm input switching, is operationally the best (technical / legal) compromise in many situations. It's surprising just how rarely it's actually used though!

 

Their is another technique which can be useful (in some circumstances) if 'triggered' recording has to be employed alone; that is 'pre event' recording.

With some units you can retain highest quality recordings of the few minutes preceeding a triggered event.

 

This is particularly appropriate for anti terrorism / homeland security situations; hopefully not a significant consideration in either the Bahamas or Turks & Caicos islands.

[rory 0]

Its been since 1993 since i was there last.

 

Actually its generally more expensive down here, as we import everything. We also have no national health or anything else that helps its citizens. I think thats a big reason we have so many drug dealers, who from lack of education or able to get a job, turned to drug dealing to be able to live, eat etc. Nassau is the capital, and is a dump, with spending by the government only going out to things like large church revivals and sporting events, they dont clean the island or upkeep it properly. They are finally redoing some of the major roads, but what good is that if they are lined with garbage, and broken down cars that never pass inspections. Even the outislands are getting dirty now. I miss the UK, and even the US, i guess I miss civilisation.

 

I may be moving back to the UK, soon.

[Cooperman 0]

If you're seriously thinking of moving back to the UK, Rory .... be prepared!

CCTV installer numbers here could well run into the many tens of thousands (you can buy security cameras in many high street shops for around £ 30.00 (US $ 55), so not much competition there then!!!

 

As the UK is apparently one of the wealthiest countries in the world, we currently 'contribute' something like £ 20 billion to the European Union every year; 150,000 people a year are leaving London (the second most expensive city in the world), mainly because the quality of life here is ....rubbish, unless of course you are rolling in money!

An average one bed apartment is around £ 250k (that's about US $ 450k), petrol (gas) is currently £ 3.70 per gallon (US $ 6.50), our health service (schools, public transport, crime, etc.) are in crisis, and the weather is mostly rain, but at different temperatures depending on the time of year.

 

There are of course estimated to be around 4 million CCTV cameras over here, and in London, we can expect to be caught on camera around 300 times per day (or so the 'experts' would have us believe).

 

Bottom line is, if you're thinking of setting up a CCTV business here from scratch, you're a braver man than I.

 

I suppose any chance of me having a midlife career change, and going to work for the London Tourist Board, may be ever so slightly dented!!

[rory 0]

I agree there are some high prices in London. Though you guys have alot more goverment services which we do not enjoy down here, and our average salaries are around $150 a week, with cost of living much higher than say New York City. Down here, unless you are rolling in money, you are living in a wooden shack eating hot dogs for dinner wearing the same clothes for a week on end.

 

The rain and TV in the UK is the biggest drawback for me!

Not sure it will be London for me, maybe south of england, or more north like Manchester where my brother is going, and we have some family in both areas.

[Cooperman 0]

Rory,

I'm not sure I'd use the word 'enjoy' when referring to government services, but I take your point.

The north of England might be your best bet; they're a lot more civilised than us southerners, plus cities like Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle are becoming increasingly 'Cool', when compared to the excesses of my beloved London!

Incidentally, having started this thread (and perhaps lived to regret it!!), I did notice the other day that the CCTV website in question has gone through something of a slight redesign. It seems to be easier to navigate now, so you never know, I may eventually finish reading through it all, by the time you get back to Britain!

[rory 0]

ill take another look at it, thanks.

 

When I say government services, I meant things like the health services, welfare, public utilities, road upkeep, etc. Ours are either non existant or 3rd world at the best.

 

I know im going to need money to move there, either way, or whereever I go, so Im going to stick it out for now. I just got a 9-5 job for a local alarm company with the ability to go out and do quotes and CCTV jobs also, so its mostly a base salary for IT and TEch support, alarm tech, etc. I just pumped out 5 CCTV quotes since yesterday so it looks like it may work out. Looks like the bank might take my jeep again though hopefully they can wait until next week.

 

Also, have you used the Baxall cameras? Just wondering how they are, and how about their DVRs? Would probably be too expensive to sell here after bringing them in from the UK but still want to know..

 

Rory

[Cooperman 0]

Londoners love to moan about what we've got, so it's often difficult to remember that 'civilisation' is what you're used to, and not what you aspire to...

 

Sorry to hear about the jeep; if it's any consolation, you can be a 25 year + CCTV consultant in the UK and still find it difficult to get work. Why pay for advice, when installers give it for free!!!

 

I haven't actually used any Baxall cameras since shortly after Mr Hall and Mr Baxter sold the company, and the CCTV world (this side of the pond at least) was never quite the same again.

 

You're obviously being asked to quote for jobs; do they rest on the bottom line price, or can you sell "value added" product based on your undoubted expertise? Maybe you can think about what you can offer that's unique, which is worth the client paying that little bit extra for?. Do you do any covert work? That usually pays well above the norm.

Maybe if you can trump your rivals quotes, you'll pick up even more recommendations.

 

Keep your chin up!!!

Wish you luck,

Cooperman

[cctv_down_under 0]

I dont think that anyone was bashing this site, I found it a worthwile read, Iw as disturbed at the factual content on DVR technology as it is very outdated indeed, the biased towards analogue would be driven by the UK market, but a lot of the poits he made on Digital were outdated and no longer correct.. as for you post..

 

Regarding the motion triggered approach to recording, the technique itself is as old as the hills; the problem from a legal perspective, is that a clever barrister (their is another name for them, but I can't repeat it in polite company), can easily argue that without a visual record of all times, it is technically possible that the system may have failed or operated unreliably, and therefore other persons may have been present at other times who were not recorded.

 

I have heard of this problem before, an example is when you have to prove that a door was closed at a certain time, and show the evidence, failing to do so can make a case not as strong, however your statement above seems to be missing one vital point, by usuing a stepper motor on time lapse you are not really recording very fast, so could that not only be considered slower than a lot of motion detected devices, therfore you could miss vital evidence, it is also much harder to prove that it has not been edited with analogue, compared to digital watermaking features... My complaint was not really of his site, more that he failed to mention the features that DVr has, like control room, where video is sent to a remote site, or Audio, and remote control, it was disturbing to read such praise and detail for analogue solutions but not read about the advantages of a digital system, liek object searching or, counting aspplications, or licence plate recognition, or stagnant objects, or frame buffering, or multicasting or the lack of ned to change tapes, digital zooming, email, paging, sms, phone support, PDA etc etc, It is a great site but if he goes into so much detail about how much better analogue is he should make sure he poits out the positives of both.