Cabling Estimates

[cctvman 0]

Please HELP! lol

 

I'm looking for a accurate yet economical way of estimating cabling installation. The cable it my primary concern, the installation of cameras,dvr, monitors I find are fairly predictable but cabling can completely throw off my estimates. I have heard some installation firms have generally flat rates based on the square footage of the site, and then grades the installation into Easy, Difficult and Very Difficult in order to assign a more accurate price. I like the idea of this because you can give a customer a pretty concrete idea of labour costs even over the phone before coming out to the site.

 

In the past I have spent just far too much time figuring out the exact cable paths and lengths, technques etc. and the time is killing me, plus all of this is just for the estimate, no guarantee i'll get the job. Id be very appreciative to get some input on how you guys handle this?

 

Also i constantly run into customers that try to get you to throw in extras like neatening up existing cables at the DVR, etc. This was obviously something that wasn't included in the estimate but how do you bring up that you're gonna have to charge them $30-75/hour to neaten up some cables? Sometimes it can take substantial time to do it cause they're so tangled. Mainly I work with small business so I'm working directly with the guy issuig the check, i guess this is part of the reason why I feel it is more difficult. Any thoughts appreciated.

 

CCTVMAN

[securitymonster 0]

I try to give a real accurate rough quote. I'm usually within 100 or so feet. When I quote them, I line item the cable with feet and the cost per foot. When I deliver the quote, I tell them the cable price will vary depending on actual cable used. Its .40 cents per foot and you will be charged for each foot used. This is perfectly okay, they can't expect to get "free" cable out of it.

 

As for the cleaning up of the mess, just tell them yes, you can gladly clean up the cable mess at the standard hourly rate. If they say no, then you don't have to do it, if they say yes, then you just generated some more business.

[cctvman 0]

Thanks for the reply, the cable isn't so much what concerns me,. its the labour of installing the cable. How do you do that? Is their a systematic process you go through?

 

CCTVMAN

 

I try to give a real accurate rough quote. I'm usually within 100 or so feet. When I quote them, I line item the cable with feet and the cost per foot. When I deliver the quote, I tell them the cable price will vary depending on actual cable used. Its .40 cents per foot and you will be charged for each foot used. This is perfectly okay, they can't expect to get "free" cable out of it.

 

As for the cleaning up of the mess, just tell them yes, you can gladly clean up the cable mess at the standard hourly rate. If they say no, then you don't have to do it, if they say yes, then you just generated some more business.

[securitymonster 0]

depends on the length of the runs, for bigger jobs of course you need to bid accordingly. For the smaller jobs, we just estimate 1 hour for indoor cameras and 1.5 hours for outdoor cameras.

 

If its a big job, get a measure wheel and walk it out, you also have to take things like climbing on a ladder, lift, etc. into the equation.

[CSG 0]

I wouldn't quote cable "by the foot." It's going to lead to disputes, where after you run the cable the customer is going to say "if you did it my way" we would have only used 300 feet instead of the 400 feet you charged me.

 

Just give a flat price, and leave enough cushion for error. Typical commercial install is going to use 250 - 500 feet per camera. Remember the short leftover piece on the reel is waste, as are overpulls.

 

 

 

I try to give a real accurate rough quote. I'm usually within 100 or so feet. When I quote them, I line item the cable with feet and the cost per foot. When I deliver the quote, I tell them the cable price will vary depending on actual cable used. Its .40 cents per foot and you will be charged for each foot used. This is perfectly okay, they can't expect to get "free" cable out of it.

[VST_Man 1]

I sub my cable pulling labor out and provide the cable. Usually I pay 85-100 per run pulled. Best part is I don't have to do it.

 

oh, the issue on the cleaning up of cables at the DVR? If I install I clean-up, makes sense and your client chould not have to ask. Maybe I missed something but if you install and then expect more to clean-up your going to go out of biz. If it is someone else's mess, then basically tell them T&M at $75 an hour.................and 9 times out of 10 you won't have to do it.

 

I won't touch someone else's mess unless I get paid as it always ends up being more workie, parts, and no fun. I'm not in biz to kiss butt, I install and maintain.

 

I actually used to provide more upfront for free but over time I got burned by clients that took advantage of me and never gave me biz. Now I act too busy until they write a check.

 

My challenge now is to get my neighbor's off my back for free or "at cost" services. I actually had several neighbor's tell me that I could use them to test my equipment? huh?

[jeromephone 6]

We are in the wire pulling business and it is pretty hard to estimate some jobs. We always are pretty close on the cable pull wire requirements but getting the hours correct is difficult. We just installed 4 cameras at a site and the cable pull ran almost 3000.00 it required lift rental and you just could not get from point a to b. We have lost some jobs but I try to leave some extra as sometimes the employees have more trouble than anticipated.

[rory 0]

I just let an electrician bill it seperately ... i charge for the cable though.

its simple, we sell them either 500 or 1000' rolls only. Go higher just in case.

if its smaller jobs that dont need conduit etc then i'll run it, but otherwise im not in that business. its quicker to hire an electrician who has 6 guys on staff to run the cable, they can do alot in 1 day.

[cctv_down_under 0]

We also use subbies and our own team, we try to use the subbies for the local work, most time consuming way but safest is to estimate it and ask the subbie to do it for that price, he can then not go over the price and it is not your risk..however I am very safe on install as I charge 2.5hrs per camera run and 1.5hrs per camera fit off focus, I doubt anyone REALY does an indoor cam in an hour, it takes at least 30 mins to get it out of the box and back focus, 5-10mins to fit it off and adjust angles and at least 45 mins to run a long cable, then you have to name it on the dvr and lable the cable, not to mention zip tie and catinery, so i tend to be very safe indeed, I often rebate if the jb went through smoothly and admit the hours...safest way as mentioned above is to get the installer to quote...hell we do it for free why should they not...ask them how many hours and then hold them to that price.

[cctvman 0]

I agree, I see people quoting 1 hr for an indoor camera, and i think to myself that it's an inevitable downward spiral with pricing like that. Really messes up cometing bids as well.

 

What does 1.5hrs per camera fit off focus mean? What steps does this encompass?

 

CCTVMAN

 

We also use subbies and our own team, we try to use the subbies for the local work, most time consuming way but safest is to estimate it and ask the subbie to do it for that price, he can then not go over the price and it is not your risk..however I am very safe on install as I charge 2.5hrs per camera run and 1.5hrs per camera fit off focus, I doubt anyone REALY does an indoor cam in an hour, it takes at least 30 mins to get it out of the box and back focus, 5-10mins to fit it off and adjust angles and at least 45 mins to run a long cable, then you have to name it on the dvr and lable the cable, not to mention zip tie and catinery, so i tend to be very safe indeed, I often rebate if the jb went through smoothly and admit the hours...safest way as mentioned above is to get the installer to quote...hell we do it for free why should they not...ask them how many hours and then hold them to that price.

[rory 0]

id say 1 hour for bullet cameras, etc, 2 hours for box cameras, fixed domes etc, 4-6 hours for PTZ. But none of this includes running cable.

[CSG 0]

Using an electrician to pull cables is going to increase the cost of the job too much, at least here in NY, and make your bid uncompetitive.

 

Plus, finding a subcontractor to be available when you need him is also a challenge.

 

Really no need to use an electrician, who is licensed for line or hi voltage, to pull low voltage wiring.

[rory 0]

well i cant call a plumber to run the cable

 

actually its cheaper .. if it takes me 5 days by myself, they could do it in 1 day .. the client saves big as my time is worth much more. Plus they have the tools and experience in running conduit .. thats not my profession.

[cctvman 0]

id say 1 hour for bullet cameras, etc, 2 hours for box cameras, fixed domes etc, 4-6 hours for PTZ. But none of this includes running cable.

 

1 hour difference between a bullet and box? 4-6 for PTZ?

 

The only difference I can think of between mounting a box and a bullet would be the possible varifocal lense and focus. Is that what your attributing the 1 hour difference to? I would think the mounting would be the exact same otherwise and 4-6 hours for a PTZ? 3-5 hours more than a bullet? The only difference I can see with the PTZ is perhaps the weight may make it more difficult and the rs-485 connection on the camera and dvr side. But in the case of a PTZ there is no camera allignment necessary. Perhaps I'm missing something, i dont understand how you can justify these time estimations though.

 

When I said that I thought 1 hour for an indoor camera was an unreasonable time estimate I was working under the premise that the cable run was included.

 

 

CCTVMAN

[CollinR 0]

I don't break it down hourly, basically I take an educted guess and double it.

[rory 0]

id say 1 hour for bullet cameras, etc, 2 hours for box cameras, fixed domes etc, 4-6 hours for PTZ. But none of this includes running cable.

 

1 hour difference between a bullet and box? 4-6 for PTZ?

 

The only difference I can think of between mounting a box and a bullet would be the possible varifocal lense and focus. Is that what your attributing the 1 hour difference to? I would think the mounting would be the exact same otherwise and 4-6 hours for a PTZ? 3-5 hours more than a bullet? The only difference I can see with the PTZ is perhaps the weight may make it more difficult and the rs-485 connection on the camera and dvr side. But in the case of a PTZ there is no camera allignment necessary. Perhaps I'm missing something, i dont understand how you can justify these time estimations though.

 

When I said that I thought 1 hour for an indoor camera was an unreasonable time estimate I was working under the premise that the cable run was included.

 

 

CCTVMAN

 

As to the bullet versus a box, the bullet camera is not a professional camera, there are typically no settings, plug and play. The box camera will take more than just a simple mount and make adjustments if one wants to utilize it properly. Every location is different so it will need adjusting for each location, lighting conditions, etc, meaning night time adjustments also. In other words you typically get what you get with a bullet camera, while a box camera will require advanced adjustments and more than the average installer knowledge to obtain the best possible image. Lets not forget the housing and other hardware if outdoors, weatherproofing everything, testing, going back to it, checking it out, etc. The CCTV Installer cannot just cut and run, it's not that simple.

 

For the PTZ that also involves programming, and you will more than likely have to return and change settings. Dont forget the mounting, installing the convertors, set up, keypad installation and ofcourse programming once again, demoing the unit to the user, and the list goes on. Not to mention most are not going to be installed in a typical location.

 

Another thing, people that are buying a Bullet camera are typically going to be on a budget, so you cant charge them the same as you would for a higher quality box camera, especially since anyone can literally install a bullet camera.

 

Now I am talking high quality box cameras, not the OEM ones. The extra work you will need to put into the adjustments on the box camera will take extra time, if you want to give the client the quality they paid for. If you just hope to plug and play, then dont sell them a box camera, or dont expect the best possible image.

 

There is a full list on hours per cameras/hardware discussed before here on the forum, might want to do a search on that as It was a couple years ago now, i think it might be under the running a security business section.

 

I wont even mention the charge to install IR Illuminators, or Cameras along with IR .. that takes even more time, if one wants it done properly.

 

I would never put the cable run in the same boat as the camera adjustments, they're totally different, the latter requires extra skill and patience.

 

In any event, it depends on the job, as they will differ from one to the next. I was only using approximates, it tends to work out around that cost globally though.

[cctv_down_under 0]

CCTVMAN:

 

labour on a job can consist of many things, to clarify we charge 2.5 hours per cable run, including for a spot monitor, we then charge 1.5 hours to fit off focus and adjust the camera angles for each camera and that tends to be safe.

 

A LOT of people do not charge this much but you should unless you are not doing the following:

 

Lets Break it down you had to.

 

1/ Cary the cable from the vehicle 5mins

2/ Unravell the wrap around the cable 3mins

3/ Measure the cable run including avoidances (lighting, power etc)10mins

4/ Uncoil the length of cable 5mins

5/ Lable the cable ends 2mins

6/ Study the roof for obstacles like power ensuring right angle crossings, work out were catinary wire will go 7 mins

7/ Erect the ladder and move it 5mins

8/ Run the cable 45mins

9/ Terminate two ends of the cable 15mins

10/ Strip power in the cable 7mins

11/ Lable power end and place in power supply 7mins

12/ Measure on a riserbond impedance etc 10mins

13/ Name the camera on the dvr software 5mins

14/ Assemble the camera and lens 5mins

15/ Erect the ladder 5mins

16/ Mount the camera and bracket 15mins

17/ Perform back focus 10mins

18/ Adjust BLC and any other settings 10mins

19/ Show customer (find him first and then let him change his mind again and again...obviously after all cameras are done). 15mins

20/ Document the camera and download the camera settings to laptop 5mins

21/ Mark the camera cable schedule 5mins

22/ Have the customer sign off on the view 5mins

 

This is all assuming that it was an easy run...look you can squible at my figures I just plucked them out of my head and it is simpler and easier and sometimes even harder but what remains is that it is closer to 3hrs especially when you add in things like setting up the dvr frmae rates etc that the customer wants that you didnt charge for etc etc.

 

Not charging for that extra spot monitor or having to run another cable becasue of interference...you need to cover yourself!

[jisaac 0]

this is what I do.

I measure of each run. And round each run up 100ft.

so obviously no run is anything but in 100ft incremants.

then take the total amount of feet and hours I personally think it will take our guys. then I multiply that by 30%. Then multiply the number of labor hours by our hourly rate. And also multiply the number of feet of cable by our going rate (depends on the going rate of cable).

 

Thats keeps me pretty accurate.

[kensplace 0]

4/ Uncoil the length of cable 5mins

 

You uncoil the reel before pulling?

[rory 0]

yeah, if you are running multiple runs .. and they're less than the length of the roll, you gotta pull off the lengths required from the roll. Dont know if thats what he meant by uncoil or not though .. as 5 minutes seems pretty quick ..

[kensplace 0]

Ahh get what you mean, I think, I normally just do it at home ( thank god, used to hate doing computer installs, running cable etc, but the views under the secretaries desks where interesting lol)) plus I just buy 100m rolls so tend just to pull off what I need and do one at a time.........

 

Guess if I had a HUGE drum I would pull off cable, if the drum was to heavy to have on a roll that enabled easy pulling.

[rory 0]

yeah the rolls of Siamese are very heavy, especially the 1000' rolls .. the cost is huge to ship them here, luckily a colleague brings them in bulk to resell to other installers, so keeps the cost down some ..

[cctvman 0]

4/ Uncoil the length of cable 5mins

 

You uncoil the reel before pulling?

 

I was actually asking myself the same thing when he wrote that, I thought i was the only one who did that.

 

It may sounds strange at first but I think it can be an effective technique. It obviously has the disadvantage of potentially having a whole heap of cable on the ground that can become tangled but this can be ameliorated by draping it over a set of rafters if the ceiling height is high enough to facilitate it, or if there is enough room on the ground that it can be stretched out over without it being stepped on, interfered with etc.

 

The advantage however I find is particularly useful if you are pulling a cable run by yourself. I find this technique lowers the amount of friction on the cable, making it easier to pull.I suppose at this point you are less "pulling the cable" and more like "threading the cable" over obstacles.

 

It might be useful to use the analogy of knitting or needle point. When the obstacles one is threading through or over are all alligned in the same direction then pulling the thread through is relatively easy. However as soon you have a significant point of friction such as a sudden change of direction it can introduce a significant amount of friction that will make pulling difficult. This can easily be overcome if you have multiple people fishing the cable, one pulling toward the destination and the other person alleviating the friction by manually passing the cable over the change of direction, but this takes two people making it necessary to double the speed of the cable pull to maintain productivity. Pulling cable in this manner however is beneficial in that one only pulls the amount of cable that is necessary for the cable run, whereas the method of unreeling the cable to begin with is more of a commitment to the length of the cable run. In normal applications though it is more likely that any cable run will be a combination of the 2 above mentioned techniques.

 

Instead of using a second person to overcome the points of friction one could also use a pulley mechanism which can be helpful, this too has advantages and disadvantages. It may help to avoid having to rely heavily on another person but the pulley requires both installation and removal when complete, so like anything else assess the situation and choose the technique or combination of techniques that will facilitate your objectives most optimally.

 

CCTVMAN

[CollinR 0]

An old shopping card, couple of scrap pieces of conduit and a twist open pulley are a lifesaver. Just put the spool in the cart and run a piece of conduit through it. Directly over the DVR put the pulley pull all your runs out and then disco the pulley and fish the wires down the wall.

 

1000' rolls I only use if the single run is over 500' which for me is somewhat rare (usually gone to Cat5 at that point), otherwise I use the 500's which aren't exactly light either.

 

 

EDIT: I have also gotten some 500' pull boxes that worked ~okay~, coleman cable IIRC.

[cctvman 0]

An old shopping card, couple of scrap pieces of conduit and a twist open pulley are a lifesaver. Just put the spool in the cart and run a piece of conduit through it. Directly over the DVR put the pulley pull all your runs out and then disco the pulley and fish the wires down the wall.

 

1000' rolls I only use if the single run is over 500' which for me is somewhat rare (usually gone to Cat5 at that point), otherwise I use the 500's which aren't exactly light either.

 

 

huh? disco the pulley? fish the wires down the wall? I dont understand what your trying to explain. Would you mind trying to explain it again?

 

CCTVMAN

 

EDIT: I have also gotten some 500' pull boxes that worked ~okay~, coleman cable IIRC.