So many questions, so few of them new

[bike_rider 0]

Long version:

 

I'm putting some cameras around the house and I have all the same questions all the beginners have.

 

DVR choice made - check. PC Based.

budget - check - a few hunderd dollars per camera won't kill me. $500 would be ok if there was a visible difference between those and the next level down.

Mission statement - no - but I know that I want identification camera in four spots: 2 entry ways & 2 out by the side walk, plus 2 general activity cameras

Ability to do it my self - check - I'm an IT guy and I started at the bottom, so I've done a little cable work (OK, so it was thicknet and thinnet days).

 

At this point, based on recent history, I'm all about image quality. If I have to have two cameras in one spot, to get great day and night performance, I'd consider it.

 

So, as with most things, you get what you pay for (or as a former co-worker said, You don't get what you don't pay for). I figure that with most things there is a point where big $ only gets you a small improvement. I don't know where that point is.

 

So, for my 2 key spots, I'd like concelable cameras. BW would be fine because I'll have color wide area shots.

 

Anyone want to point me in the right direction?

 

Short version:

Can anyone recommend 2 small high quality cameras, plus 2 high quality cameras that don't have to be small? Or at least suggest at what price point you start to move to very, very good image quality?

 

Cameras will not be monitored live, so recorded image quality is what I'll ultimately care about.

 

(Edited to fix a few typos)

Edited January 20, 2007 by Guest

[securitymonster 0]

What pc based dvr are you going with? This is going to be just as important. If you went with a cheap-o version, there is no sense in spending the money on a hi-res camera....

 

A good bang for your buck in cameras is the "Ganz" brand cameras. Visit www.cbcamerica.com and click on the "cctv" button.

[bike_rider 0]

What pc based dvr are you going with? This is going to be just as important. If you went with a cheap-o version, there is no sense in spending the money on a hi-res camera....

 

A good bang for your buck in cameras is the "Ganz" brand cameras. Visit www.cbcamerica.com and click on the "cctv" button.

 

Right now the plan is Geovision 1120, but I'm open to suggestions for something with better image quality.

[CollinR 0]

I think your expectations are reasonable, I know I sell a very nice color 24hr vandal dome for about $400 that has picture quality second to few. If BW bullets are acceptable I sell a high resolution off brand unit with good low light performance for about $120.

 

HTH and PM me as much info about your install as possible if you want a design.

[bike_rider 0]

I think your expectations are reasonable, I know I sell a very nice color 24hr vandal dome for about $400 that has picture quality second to few. If BW bullets are acceptable I sell a high resolution off brand unit with good low light performance for about $120.

 

HTH and PM me as much info about your install as possible if you want a design.

 

Thanks Collin, I may send you some info when I've firmed up what I want to acheive.

 

I've been thinking that CCTV image quality is not good compared to even the most basic digital still camera. For identification, it seems like one should be able to rig a nice 6MP still camera to some sort of trigger device. I'm looking into that beofre I go any further.

[rory 0]

Digital Still cameras are very limited in their lighting capabilities, compared to CCTV cameras, plus lets not mention the storage required for the megapixel images.

[bike_rider 0]

Digital Still cameras are very limited in their lighting capabilities, compared to CCTV cameras, plus lets not mention the storage required for the megapixel images.

 

Hi Rory,

 

Everything has trade offs. I'm a "defense in depth" kind of guy. I haven't seen a CCTV solution that will let me point one or two cameras at a two car wide driveway and get an ID quality image. Oh, when I say basic digtial camera I mean "basic digital SLR." So if the SLR lets me extend my odds of ID during daylight (or longer with a few stong outside lights), I'm interested. An 8G compact flash card will hold a lot of images. I'd rather have a really good image once every five seconds than have 30 fps of D1.

 

 

I was looking at my property and confirmed what you already know - getting close enough for identification means a very narrow field of view. Even an "old" SLR like a Digital Rebel at 6MP might cover my driveway with enough detail for identification. Right now I'm trying to figure out how I might use Geovision's IO board to trigger the SLR. The SLR just uses a momentary switch to close the circuit, I just haven't figured out how to link the 2 pieces.

 

I'm open to any advice or recommendations.

[rory 0]

1 image every 5 seconds wont cut it for security though, which is why we dont sell those products for CCTV.

 

there are definitely CCTV cameras that will get you an ID, but obviously there are limitations with the FOV, as with any camera.

 

Im not sure what you mean by a basic digital still camera, the 2 i have here, they range from $100 to $200, and they could never be uses as a security camera.

 

What happens when the criminals break in at night?

which is what occurs in most cases.

 

What happens when the USB drive fills up?

manual delete?

 

Do you think the camera would be able to be powered up 24/7 for 5 years without failure (or even just 6 months), and what about rain and other environmental issues?

[bike_rider 0]

1 image every 5 seconds wont cut it for security though, which is why we dont sell those products for CCTV.

 

there are definitely CCTV cameras that will get you an ID, but obviously there are limitations with the FOV, as with any camera.

 

Im not sure what you mean by a basic digital still camera, the 2 i have here, they range from $100 to $200, and they could never be uses as a security camera.

 

What happens when the criminals break in at night?

which is what occurs in most cases.

 

What happens when the USB drive fills up?

manual delete?

 

Do you think the camera would be able to be powered up 24/7 for 5 years without failure (or even just 6 months), and what about rain and other environmental issues?

 

Hi Rory,

 

You are thinking problems not solutions

 

1 shot every five seconds is probably fine for people walking up my drive way. OTOH, I could shoot 3 frames per second if I wanted. If the camera only fires when another system detects an event (motion or other alarm input), I could go a long time before I had to empty a drive. Drives are cheap; I just bought two 500G drives for $350. An SLR could provide a much larger FOV and still be viable for identification. But again, this is not the only piece of the solution. It would need to be used in conjuction with full motion cameras to provide context.

 

In this case, when I say basic digital camera, I mean basic digital SLR - Canon Rebel ($300-500 used). It could easily sit quietly for months or maybe even years - depending on how many shutter activations. Weatherproof boxes are cheap and easy, but I'd probably stick mine in a garage window.

 

Around here, the guy that breaks in at night is also the guy that went door to door during the day casing places. Yes, getting a night time ID shot would be hard to do with an SLR, no question, but a few flood lights would help and it doesn't seem easy to do with CCTV either.

 

For the home user, cameras do not provide security - they provide a record of events. There is the deterence factor of course, but mostly I want to know who and what triggered the alarm.

 

In the "arms race" against breakins, I'm looking at all possible tools to prevent a B&E, minimize exposure to loss and record what happened.

 

Keep giving me details to work out. This is good.

 

-br

[rory 0]

A Day Night Solution for a home owner, would be one of these ...

http://www.nuvico.com/product_detail.asp?strCategoryCD=CC001&strModel=OUTDOOR%20BULLET%20IR%20CAMERAS&prod_cd=NP0041&Page=1

 

For a luxury Home Owner ..

http://www.extremecctv.com/product_detail.php?producttype_id=2&page=4&product_id=32

 

maybe with one or more of these ..

http://www.extremecctv.com/products.php?producttype_id=1&whichpage=3

 

For the business owner .. could be a range of the above or something like Panasonic or Ge Day/Night box cameras with the added IR / lighting where needed.

 

Also the camera should be placed outdoors if it is looking outdoors, otherwise you will have reflection / rear lighting issues at night.

 

As for the home owner, it is part of a security system. If you hear a noise, it is safer to look at the camera than to go peering through the window. If there is not proper lighting, and the camera is equiped with Infrared Lighting, then that too is something peering through the window or even going outside to look, will not be able to accomplish. It's 100% Security related. If the camera is not working due to failure, or cant see due to it being too dark, or the image is just shoddy, and a crime does occur, or someone is breaking in or the homeowner hears a noise and gets shot going to look .. it is definitely part of a security system.

 

An alarm system is only a small part of a security system also, IMO a burglar alarm is useless without proper surveillance cameras in place and recording. (I installed alarms professionally for 6 years also) And ofcourse other hardware related security.

 

CCTV is also useful for evidence when and if a crime should occur.

 

But as to what you want to do .. if the camera has an IO port, then you maybe able to trigger the recording from the alarm using a relay.

[bike_rider 0]

Thanks Rory. I think you summed up the relationship between the parts of the system better than I did.

 

So uh, $1500 (quick froogle search) for a camera. I'd guess that is about the price point where lots more money only gets you a slight improvement. Hey it's still only 480 lines!

 

I'll admit it might just be easier to point 4 cameras with a narrow field of view at the approach, but where's the fun in that?

[kensplace 0]

Unless you can find a digital slr that can automatically upload its images as they are taken, to a remote pc then the burgler would be able to walk up to the window, smash it and walk away with a nice second hand digital slr, your proof of who did it would remain with the burgler..

[rory 0]

which one? The first is cheap, the second is expensive, but worth every penny as a day night camera. That extra $1000 does get you alot more than any other camera will give you .. but its for day night apps that require IR at night .. otherwise there are other options.

[bike_rider 0]

Unless you can find a digital slr that can automatically upload its images as they are taken, to a remote pc then the burgler would be able to walk up to the window, smash it and walk away with a nice second hand digital slr, your proof of who did it would remain with the burgler..

 

Yes. I think off site transport to another site should included in any unattended system.

[bike_rider 0]

which one? The first is cheap, the second is expensive, but worth every penny as a day night camera. That extra $1000 does get you alot more than any other camera will give you .. but its for day night apps that require IR at night .. otherwise there are other options.

 

Yeah, the second one looked cool, but I'm not sure I need IR. I can put up motion activated floods around the yard, so I think that I'll have the lighting issue (mostly) covered.

[rory 0]

Yeah, the second one looked cool, but I'm not sure I need IR. I can put up motion activated floods around the yard, so I think that I'll have the lighting issue (mostly) covered.

 

Yep i always suggest lighting first, though most clients ive ever had for some reason didn't like lights in their yard .. at least the ones with money, the ones that could afford to add lighting ..

 

Ok that said .. you might want to check out the Pano or GE Day Night box cameras .. as then you can use the DVR and dont have to try to figure out all the rest .. and still get a good 24/7 image .. Even with lighting, unlelss the floods are very powerful, color cameras can have issues at night, that is unless the light from the floods cover the entire image and provide daylight like lux levels. Thats where a true Day night camera comes into place, switching over to BW mode for much more sensitivity under low lighting.

 

Anyway, just a thought ..

there is a sticky at the top of this forum on Day Night camera links ..

 

Rory

[rory 0]

to compare between color and BW .. under low lighting conditions ..

 

top right and bottom left are same view .. different cameras.

Top right is color only, and bottom left is BW only.

 

 

[bike_rider 0]

Interesting that the bottom right camera looks a little clipped in the day time highlights, but has the best night performance.

[rory 0]

the left BW is a BW exview, so it actually sees more in low light than the right hand one, but not as clear overall, as its a cheaper brand.

[bike_rider 0]

the left BW is a BW exview, so it actually sees more in low light than the right hand one, but not as clear overall, as its a cheaper brand.

 

So what is the one on the lower right?

[rory 0]

thats a provideo BW .. 0.1 lux ... if in the same position as the exview 0.02 lux one, it doesnt see quite as well as thats pretty dark there.

[kg6mti 0]

thats a provideo BW .. 0.1 lux ... if in the same position as the exview 0.02 lux one, it doesnt see quite as well as thats pretty dark there.

 

Rory,

 

Can you send me the model number of that camera? I think I might want to get one of those.

 

Thanks!

[rory 0]

thats a provideo BW .. 0.1 lux ... if in the same position as the exview 0.02 lux one, it doesnt see quite as well as thats pretty dark there.

 

Rory,

 

Can you send me the model number of that camera? I think I might want to get one of those.

 

Thanks!

 

hi, which one, the BW on the bottom right?

thats a provide CVC-320WPS .. they dont sell the same exact model anymore though but I think it is like a 325 now ..

 

Rory