Embedded DVRs

[rory 0]

"In surveillance the main priority should be reliability. Embedded technology has the edge over PC-based DVRs when it comes to reliability. The core reason, is the embedded operating software is dedicated to managing video, where PC-based operating systems handle multiple processes simultaneously, potentially causing a higher level of failure.

 

With PC-based systems an operator may be required to operate a system that is beyond his IT expertise. However, embedded technology allows for much easier operation and is more user-friendly, leaving more time for the operator to fulfil his job description with greater ease and functionality. Management on the other hand have the full flexibility of a graphical user interface."

[knightvision 0]

Interesting quote rory, what article did you find it in? How old is it? I have seen it posted here before. It has several glaring assumptions that really do need to be addressed.

 

While the claims it makes may be true for some "manufacturers" (I do use the term losely) who simply slap a card and software in a PC over top WinXP Home, it is not the case for a *properly* built and designed PC Based system. Unfortunately, it is next to impossible to do this using GEO cards and software.

 

A *proper* PC Based system will be built and designed from the ground up around the DVR Card, and all the little extras MicroSatan throws in there will be removed. In our systems we have done this by removing the Windows Shell and replacing it with our own custom shell (only 64k). Only DVR Mission Critical threads are running on the system. This frees up loads of resources to ensure the DVR runs properly.

 

It also helps set proper expectations with your client. I agree with you on one point Rory - if you sell a client something that looks and acts like their home computer, they will inevitably use it as one. At NO point does our system look or behave like a PC. After a full hour long demonstration of our product, and letting the client take some time to play with the system themselves, I have had DEALERS ask if it's an embedded or PC Based system.

 

The biggest problem with using most of the Card and Software systems out there is that they require you to go in to Windows to do certain tasks like Burn a CD, or set up network settings. Again, a proper system will allow you to do these things from within the application itself.

 

In terms of reliability, I REALLY beg to differ. We have distributed several different embedded DVR manufacturers' products over the years. While we have not used the Kalatel product which you so love, we do distribute the HiSharp model you have been touting recently because we found it to be one of the more reliable systems with a decent price. We have had more service calls relating to standalone systems in the last 6 months, than we have for our PC systems in the last 2 years.

 

When comparing an embedded system and a cheap card and software PC based system, you're absolutely right, the embedded will win every time. When comparing an embedded system and a *properly* built PC based system, the only difference I have been able to see is that the PC Based system has a much nicer GUI, and can be much more intuitive.

 

I think I'm going to have to cut this post here, but I do look forward to your response.

[rory 0]

I can only say, I have never had a service call to a Stand Alone unit, but then that is all Kalatel DVRs, over the past 3 years. Windows is windows, there is no way around it, it is typically an unstable OS, that is why people like Linux and MACs. People that try to compare a PC DVR as stable as an embedded unit, are doing it for thier own personal reasons, its like comparing a V4 to a V8. It takes me 5-10 minutes to demo a Kalatel DVR, and the user is happy and knows what they are doing. Though after using a couple cheap Asian embedded DVRs, I can see that those type of DVRs are not that great. Sounds like your PC DVR is the exception to the rule, 64K Windows OS???

 

PS. The HiSharp does not compare at all to a Kalatel DVR, it is a very very cheap low end DVR. Though it has a couple nice local live features for a low end DVR.

Edited July 22, 2004 by Guest

[knightvision 0]

So let me get this straight...

 

If I say that our PC Based systems are just as if not more reliable than those HiSharp DVR's, or even the Kalatel systems, even if I have service call history and statistics to back it up, it is for my own personal reasons or bias? We wholesale both Standalone units and PC Based systems. When it comes down to it, I don't care which units my dealers sell, just so long as they sell.

 

I can do a quick search on the internet, and find a whack of Embedded systems that are nothing but garbage when it comes to reliability. The same is true for PC Based systems. I don't think SA units should all be hailed as "reliable" while all PC systems should be written off.

Edited July 22, 2004 by Guest

[rory 0]

as you can see I didnt say all embedded were great as you are right, there is a lot of junk out there in the low end market.

 

Sounds like I shouldnt be selling the HiSharp from what you are saying? Though I like some of its features, but it doesnt back up as a video file, just an image file or to VCR.

 

I agree though, not all PC systems should be written off.

[AVCONSULTING 0]

Knight, the problem isn't your DVR, it is the general perception by the dealer base (fostered in part by DM) that PC Based units in general are dicey. For example another Canadian company that built Kodicom's, now called I-3, did a terrible job of building their PC Based Kodicom DVRs and had a 50% failure rate. I know since I was their rep in the Southern Calif territory and I spent most of my time fixing problems. They not only built them using low end computer components but then compounded the problem by shipping them in inadequate cartons resulting in freight damage to many of the units. Then they couldn't even include the proper documentation or paperwork. It was a public relations disaster.

 

This is just one company out of many PC based DVR builders that have screwed up the market and give the PC based DVR a bad reputation. Add to that the excellent PR campaign by DM showing why embedded is better than PC has pretty much soured the majority of dealers on PC based DVRs.

 

It is now a matter of perception versus reality and there are a majority of dealers who will not even consider a PC based DVR. So no matter how well built your DVR is you will not be able to persuade many dealers to even try it since they have been burned too many times. This has nothing to do with you or your product, simply a matter of smart marketing by DM who took advantage of the many early PC based problems and instilled a healthy fear of PC based units in the minds of many dealers. That is what you and all other PC based vendors are up against. That is what I'm up against since I also represent another PC based DVR and I see it every day.

[knightvision 0]

Don't get me wrong... The HiSharp is a very reliable unit. It is a great low end system, but it does suffer from the same hardware issues that affect any DVR, SA or PC. i.e. Hard Drives *WILL* fail after time. From a software point of view it is quite reliable.

 

Our OS is based on Windows XP. No, the whole OS is not 64k. The shell is 64k. The OS has been customized and stripped right down to eliminate any non-mission critical processes. The BASE WinXP OS is in fact quite reliable. The problem with Windows occurred when MS tried to make it do everything and anything. By stripping it down, these issues have been removed.

 

By customizing the OS, we have been able to pick and choose which processes we want to run. We have chosen those which are mission critical and reliable, and gotten rid of the rest. THAT is how you make windows reliable.

[rory 0]

I need to get my hands on a copy of that version ))

 

Ok so HiSharp is ok to use for a low end DVR, I was hoping, as its a good price, only had it running a few days now so wasnt sure.

 

While on that, do you know why their spec sheet sais you can save a recording as an Avi, but the software itself only does Jpeg?

 

Thanks

Rory

[knightvision 0]

Yeah, about that... Don't believe the spec sheet! There have been a couple misrepresentations we have approached them about. 1st - the jpg avi issue... 2nd - the spec sheet used to list the units as 60 fps... We asked them directly about it, and they said yes, 60 frames per second. Turns out it's "fields" per second... So only 30 ips. 3rd - There have been a couple shipments where the Network Search has been really buggy...

 

As far as the OS, it's a Customized, OEM that we've had a team of 12+ developers on since about a month after XP came out... Takes a lot of resources to get to this stage. A lot of money has been invested, and it truly does work quite well - to the point where Comart has approached us to offer our software to their customers. We also have the highest customer rating of any 3rd Party Software company on their site. There is a reason for that.

 

There are a lot of garbage PC dealers out there. I won't argue that... It's funny that AV mentioned i3, cuz they're probably our biggest competition up here. We have invested close to $1 million to build our system from the ground up. We ONLY use high end parts as a rule. I'd bet, that a lot of people on this board could look at our system, play around with it, and not even know it was PC Based unless they opened it up.

[Thomas 0]

Stripping Windows down isn't too hard. Honestly though 2000/XP isn't too bad a set of OS's. The stability is there if you go with good hardware vendors. This insures good drivers. Then making sure the software is good. If your software has memory leaks then you have a problem. If your software is buggy then you'll have problems.

[rory 0]

Look at me dragging up this old post ..

 

Well time has certainly past and as many know on the forum I am primarily dealing in PC based DVRs and as mentioned in this same thread, i strip down windows XP to make it work great .. and also have done some major customizing.

 

I didnt start messing around with XP until later that year (when this thread was last posted on) and didnt start messing with PC based DVR's until January following .. but it was definately SP2 that got me into XP and ofcourse for PC based DVRs after that there were many other reasons; Customs Duty (non on PCs, 45% on Stand Alones), Inhouse Upgradable (Down here that helps), and Higher Quality Evidence Sharing ...

 

And also moved far away from HiSharp DVRs ... but other brands have come out since then and the technology of both PC based and Embedded have progressed amazingly ..

 

Id still like to say thanks to Kinght for his input way back when .. and ofcourse AVConsult's .. I hope to see them both around the forums sometime ..

 

Rory

[CSG 0]

The Embedded DVR's are still more reliable than PC based. I never had a embedded like Dedicated Micros, or Samsung GVI stop recording and need a reboot.

 

My dedicated Geo server (with all the latest hardware, MOBO, big memory, fast processor, blah blah blah,XP & latest service packs) has hung up a few times. I only use it for testing & demonstation, so for this purpose it doesn't matter.

 

I run 3 other Win2k Advanced Server & 2003 Exchange Sever, they all need rebooting from time to time.

 

The last thing you want after an incident is to find your DVR hung up on the blue screen of death, or one of those "send/don't send" error reports on the desktop.

 

I can lock an embedded in a safe and come back a year later and it's still recording. That's the reliablilty I sell my clients.

 

Windoze will crash given enough time. Perhaps if Windows can set to automatically reboot itself every 24 hours that would help to refresh fragmented memory, clean up memory leaks, clear hung drivers and such.

[rory 0]

I set the XP Dvrs to Reboot every 7 days, had one now in a closet at a location since last year August, Ive never been back and its still recording and online (and thats with a 2.9 celeron and 256DDR!)

 

So yes, the OS requires a reboot every now and then, not even as much as 7 days, though it doesnt hurt. Other than that I've never had any of the XP DVRs crash or lock up, in fact I've never seen a Blue Screen of Death since Windows 98. Ofcourse the Default XP OS is a disaster, unless it is tweaked then I would not even trust it to just browse the web.

 

Ive also had many Embedded Units lock up and require reboot. Not as common on the more expensive units like the GE, but yes Ive seen it on at least 1 DM and have had issues with at least 1 GE, but still most problems occur on the lower end units, with Embedded Linux. Most times this is hardware related though.

 

So basically it depends how the XP OS is setup, what programs are installed and running, and how stable those are together. So far had no issues with GeoVision on an XP Tweaked machine so thats one reason I have stuck with them. Most if not all of the issues people have with PC DVRs these days are the OS they are running, the way it is setup (default installs mostly), and the DVR Card and Software Stability (dont forget PC Hardware Compatibility).

 

The biggest selling point to a Windows XP DVR over an Embedded RTOS DVR, is being able to change any hardware the same day it goes down, and the higher quality of recorded video for evidence sharing, not to mention the added features (but features can be matched on higher end RTOS DVRs) .. then there is the lower cost. The biggest selling point on the Standalone Embedded units these days are, there is no mouse and keyboard; not everyone can still use a PC yet.

 

Dont get me wrong, i still see the Stand Alone Embedded units as useful and they have their place, and love the GE's to a degree still (not a DM fan as they dont use a RTOS embedded OS). But i'd sell one of my Tweaked PC DVRs now over those, if only for the fact that I can change parts myself without having to send it back to the manufacturer.

 

Ofcourse with all that said, I dont just install windows, slap in the card, and place it in the clients location; I spend at least 2 days building, setting up, tweaking, and testing the PC DVR. So it does take longer in that regard, but It is best to take the time and do it right. The shortest amount of time Ive setup a PC DVR in was 6 hours, but it was a DVR before that and all I had to do was setup, tweak, and do a short test - but thats rare and generally it is 2 days, or longer.

[CSG 0]

yeah, XP doesn't go blue screen, it's the send/dont send

 

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7021/senderror0oi.jpg

 

windoze phone home message

 

Most DVR users are not going to check up on their DVR until they need to review video, and that's when they want the DVR working, not a Microsoft phone home message.

 

When I refer to an embedded DVR, I mean a quality unit like GE, DM, Bosch,Pano, Sanyo, or Samsung GVI, not a cheapo alibaba.com OEM.

 

yeah I know DM is not a true embedded, but they rank right up there in reliabilty. I have an old 16 channel DM Sprite 5+ years old that keeps on ticking like a Timex. Took a lightening strike this summer that knocked out one channel, but it soldiers on.

[rory 0]

You only get those error messages if its not set up properly, and then i turn those messages off alltogether anyway. WatchDog will ultimately restart software if there is an error, which there wont be as you will get any errors at the initial setup of the software and hardware, and then they would have already been addressed.

 

Personally I prefer a DVR that never requires having to deal with anyone else for Tech Support ...

 

PS. I can easily rank a PC DVR Built by myself as reliable or moreso than any of those mentioned ... they just have different applications is all. Im not defending PC DVRs now .. or going against my favourite GE machines .. I just know i can set up a quality PC DVR now, and when there are hardware issues I dont have to wait several weeks for a replacement. ..

[CollinR 0]

I'm going to bring this thread up every time rory says IP cams need a 24/7 IT department.

 

 

 

All good points, especially on the support and parts.

 

Also if you have a DSP out to a monitor you'll know pretty quickly if you have trouble.

[rory 0]

The IP cam part is totally different though .. its a network that is the issue there. Flimsy cat5 cable as well ...

[jmason 0]

 

Dont get me wrong, i still see the Stand Alone Embedded units as useful and they have their place, and love the GE's to a degree still (not a DM fan as they dont use a RTOS embedded OS). But i'd sell one of my Tweaked PC DVRs now over those, if only for the fact that I can change parts myself without having to send it back to the manufacturer.

 

.

 

March Networks DVRs are embedded and can be repaired on spot. Just like a pc. You can also set the dvrs up to tell you when something goes wrong or is about to go wrong. thie enables you to proactivly correct issue. Instread of finding them when your looking up an incident. Their software can even tell you if someone bumped or moved a camera out of position or has gone out.

[rory 0]

 

Dont get me wrong, i still see the Stand Alone Embedded units as useful and they have their place, and love the GE's to a degree still (not a DM fan as they dont use a RTOS embedded OS). But i'd sell one of my Tweaked PC DVRs now over those, if only for the fact that I can change parts myself without having to send it back to the manufacturer.

 

.

 

March Networks DVRs are embedded and can be repaired on spot. Just like a pc.

 

 

But can you buy a new Embedded Board replacement at the local store ..?

[CollinR 0]

 

Dont get me wrong, i still see the Stand Alone Embedded units as useful and they have their place, and love the GE's to a degree still (not a DM fan as they dont use a RTOS embedded OS). But i'd sell one of my Tweaked PC DVRs now over those, if only for the fact that I can change parts myself without having to send it back to the manufacturer.

 

.

 

March Networks DVRs are embedded and can be repaired on spot. Just like a pc.

 

 

But can you buy a new Embedded Board replacement at the local store ..?

 

 

You probably can, it should be embedded on a solid state disk like CF used in digital cameras just bigger then normal. It's like having a BIOS failure, it just doesn't happen since there are no moving parts.

 

CF are write limited, if they do that you have to put the swap file in a RAM drive. CF is only good for a certain number of writes which doesn't really effect digital cameras but an OS would exceed it in not too long at all.

[jmason 0]

No you can't buy a new embedded board at a store. We keep them as well as all the other components in our service vans. that way when a tech goes to a site it's a one stop deal. We know when our customers have video related issues before they do and are always happy with the proactive approach we take. No going to the store, fast service, no sending the clients parts out for repair, and minimal down time. All March products carry an advanced replacement warranty. Pretty much the same can be said for Video Insight although it is a pc based solution.

[CollinR 0]

Well I guess that sums that up.

 

 

So do your dealers have to pay for full licensing on their repair parts?

 

Or explain how your product works might be better, is the memory physically on the board?

 

If you want you can email me, Collin(a)CollinRector.com.

 

 

EDIT: Ooops I noticed which forum we are in. Either way you could set the world on fire by making your systems compatable with off the shelf parts as much as possible.

 

Otherwise if you ever go under or change product development every customer gets screwed, I can't pass that on to my customers.

[jmason 0]

I'm Not the MFGR. I work for an integrater, We only use products that we can repair in one stop. The brands mentioned above are capable of that. One stop repairs are the most efficient service that can be provided and make customers happy when their not out a cctv system that has to go back to the MFGR for repair.They are only down the amount of time it takes for us to get there and repair.Also all systems are backed up so in the event of a catastophic failure a out of the box system can be restored to their custom setting by siply transferring files.March does have a ram slot on the main board. I'm not sure I answered your questions correctly. Feel free to post again or PM me.

[mfuzzy 0]

if march networks were so reliable, your "truck stock" would be out of warranty before you used it or you wouldn't need to carry it at all or be watching for the next failure. and,,,the one piece that needs changed 60 - 70% of the time (power supply), march won't let you field swap. now you are sending units back for repair and installing advanced replacements because of a power supply. they also have read/write issues on the hard drives that can cripple a system with constant software restarts. haven't seen the feature that tells you if a cam was bumbed or moved, only the sync loss. with that said, i do like the march system, it just isn't the do all know all dvr of the next century.

 

let's face it, a system with no issues would put us all out of work.

all systems have their bugs, find the ones you can handle

[jmason 0]

if march networks were so reliable, your "truck stock" would be out of warranty before you used it or you wouldn't need to carry it at all or be watching for the next failure. and,,,the one piece that needs changed 60 - 70% of the time (power supply), march won't let you field swap. now you are sending units back for repair and installing advanced replacements because of a power supply. they also have read/write issues on the hard drives that can cripple a system with constant software restarts. haven't seen the feature that tells you if a cam was bumbed or moved, only the sync loss. with that said, i do like the march system, it just isn't the do all know all dvr of the next century.

 

let's face it, a system with no issues would put us all out of work.

all systems have their bugs, find the ones you can handle

 

with over 600 DVRs inservice carrying one spare ain't too bad.

 

As your supervisor you are hereby releived of your responsibility of showing up for work ever again........Or you can Just do the GE installs for the rest of the time you work here............