HELP! I need to set up a wireless rig.

[nitronick 0]

Hey guys! Glad I found this forum. I need help setting up an affordable survellience rig. Here's the scenario....

 

I have a potential client that has some temp employs stealing from him. He needs video monitoring and recording of the activity in his ticket booths and entry gates. He has only one event during the year that last for nine days, so it would be cost prohibitive for him to set up a permanent system. There are five gates and six ticket booths at various locations on the grounds, so that means 11 cameras. This is an outdoor event, and the furthest cameras would be no more than 1/2 mile from the wireless access point. Great line of site from all gates to the AP/antenna position. I can't wire up the place, and I am thinking I could probably sell this wireless setup at other venues I have contracts with.

I would need to record the feed from all 12 cameras at the same time. The video doesn't have to be HD , but I will need to be able to identify faces, and have adequate frame rate to see them putting anything in their pockets, etc. Hard drive space is cheap, so that's no problem and I could burn the video to DVDs at the end of the day.

 

I already have the following items that I use with my wireless bar code scanners, though those will not be used at this time. The only thing chewing up bandwidth will be the cameras.:

 

 

Intermec WA21 2.4ghz Wireless Access Point

 

 

RadioLabs 1 watt Booster Amp

 

 

RadioLabs Wireless Hi-Gain Network Antenna

 

 

 

The access point is set up as a DHCP server. I use my scanners quite a bit during the summer, and do not have any problem communicating with the laptop database through the access point at the distances listed above. I have done a little research and came up with the following that I hope will work.

 

 

 

Hawking Technology Wireless Network Camera

 

 

And if needed to boost the signal, I could connect this to the camera and point it toward the AP antenna.

 

 

Hawking Technology 2.4GHz Hi-Gain WiFi Dish Antenna

 

 

I can get the cameras for +/- $100 each. Considering I will have to buy 12 of these(1 for backup), I don't want to spend the $ unless I know for certain it will work. I'm sure I would be getting higher quality cams at a later date, but I need to get this up and running first. Don't really think I need any pan/tilt ability.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Sorry. Can't post any pictures for the next 10 days/10 posts!

 

Thanks,

Mitch

[VST_Man 1]

to stay completly wirelss you'll be spending some money to get what you want. 2 ways; network cams or direct video links. Both will cost you.

 

sounds like your owner wants it all for nothing.

[nitronick 0]

Well, I would be the "owner". And I have no problems spending the money to make this work. I just want to make sure it WILL work to my satisfaction before I plunk down said money.

Wireless video monitoring is something we have had in the back of our mind to accompany our wireless bar code ticketing system. It became a priority when one of our potential clients asked about it. Provided I can put the system together, I have no doubt he will contract with us to provide the system.

We already have the industrial wireless access point, 1 watt signal booster and antenna(listed above). I wanted to include photos and links, but I cannot do that for 10 days. Provided the items I already have will handle the bandwidth, I just need help selecting cameras and recording/monitoring software that will handle 12 or more cameras.

[WirelessEye 0]

We have been monitoring Wireless feeds for ~4 years now. (I'd be surprised if any privately held corporation does more than us). I can tell you that the infrastructure to do it correctly is quite expensive. The first reason: It's wireless.

 

A lot of companies spend thousands of dollars in R&D money to find not only the best wireless gear for their money/application, but also on the camera setup that streams most efficiently over them.

 

What I can tell you, is that you need to pass on 2.4Ghz. It does not have the required throughput to handle anything more than 1 camera. This is fine for PTP setups, but PTMP setups will be scary on 2.4.

 

Hope this helps.

[nitronick 0]

Thankx wireless. I had a look at your site. Very cool.

 

What if I stepped it up to 5ghz APs? I have access to 6 or so of them. I realize I would have to then get 5ghz cameras, but....

Edited March 2, 2007 by Guest

[WirelessEye 0]

Thanks.

 

5Ghz is will do what you need easily. Just remember, weatherproof everything. In a PTMP system, the AP is going to throttle to whatever your weakest Client's signal is. So if you got a 54Mbps signal on 6 out of 7 Clients, but your 7th is getting noise and only has a 6Mbps link, the AP will lower it's speed to 6Mbps for all clients, and then you'll run into problems. Always test, test again, and test some more before installing your equipment, you'll be glad you did.

 

You can use any IP camera or Analog camera that has been digitized. For costs sake, I'd find the cheapest IP camera you can get and see if you like the results.

[nitronick 0]

Forgive my stupidity, all of this was thrust upon me about a year ago when our VP died and we had contracts to fulfill. I have a constant headache from all of the knowledge I have had to acquire in a very short period of time!

Are you saying the cameras do not have to transmit at 5ghz as well?

 

So I could use the cheaper cams with the 5ghz AP?

[nitronick 0]

BTW, the Intermec APs I would be using are weatherproof, good for operating in extreme cold(with an optional heater) and heat.

[WirelessEye 0]

It doesn't mean that you have to use cheaper cameras, it means that any camera that can connect to a network, whether it be an IP camera, or an Analog camera that has a digitizer hooked to it, will connect to any radio. The radio is for all practical purposes: a router. The radio/router will send your signal to another radio/router which has a cable that connects to the LAN. No special cameras needed.

 

I'm not familiar with Intermec, but I went to their website and it all looks like Cisco stuff? Just make sure that it is newer Cisco stuff that is using Atheros chipsets. Old Cisco wireless equipment is not nearly as good as their newer Atheros gear.

[nitronick 0]

OK, Thanks Wireless.

It looks like I need to go ahead and secure those 5ghz APs and pick up a few cameras.

As I said before, I have no aversion to buying higher quality cameras in the future, but I think I need to stick with the lower priced stuff until I get this off the ground and running.

Do you think the monitoring/recording software that comes with these cameras will work for now, or should I look into something like the Milestone software I have read about here?

Do I really need to connect to a separate LAN, or wouldn't the dozen or so cameras and the recording/monitoring server be it's own LAN via the wireless AP? I don't see any need for any other connectivity outside of the cameras and the recording/monitoring server.

 

Again, forgive my ignorance. The wireless scanner rig I inherited was complete when I came on board, and I didn't receive much training before our VP died leaving this all in my lap. It has been a very hectic year!

 

Thanks,

 

Mitch

[VST_Man 1]

post your selected equipment and your results. I'm interested in learning more from others....thanks

[WirelessEye 0]

The cameras would be on whatever LAN that your AP(s) are connected to. If your existing LAN is is not really saturated or utilized, then you can just connect to it, otherwise you can do seperate LAN's. That is something you'll have to figure out for yourself. It would be a good idea to have a Network admin do a network assesment before you get started to make sure you don't leave yourself high and dry.

 

Milestone is great software, so is ONSSI. (They are pretty much the same). If you are in the USA, you'll want to go with ONSSI as they are located in the States and support calls, etc. will be an issue if you go with Milestone as there is a big time difference.

 

Not all wireless equipment has to be expensive to be good. In wireless, you get charged for what you don't know. That is, if you don't know how to program through a command line, know router settings, etc. you'll pay more for equipment that has a GUI for people who are ignorant to wireless configurations. Just an FYI.

[nitronick 0]

My APs are not hardwired to a LAN. The only communication happening is between the scanners and the laptop running the database via the wireless AP.

I envision the camera setup being the same, if that's possible.

[WirelessEye 0]

I'm confused. Do you even have a wired LAN?

[nitronick 0]

No.

Everything I do now with my bar code scanners, and everything I need to do with the cameras will be wireless. I will not be connected to a hardwired LAN at any time.

The cameras will be positioned at the gates and inside the ticket booths. I will mount the AP, booster amp and omni-directional antenna on top of the building that has a clear line of sight to all of the cameras. I will have my server/monitor in an office somewhere on the grounds that will have line of sight to the antenna as well. If need be, I can also connect an external antenna to each camera(something directional, like a yagi or a small dish) to aid in getting the signal to the AP antenna.

[WirelessEye 0]

So your server that will handle all the cameras will be wireless to the AP as well? If this is the case, you could have performance issues unless you get maximum signal on every single connection, which is unlikely with a omnidirectional antenna.

[nitronick 0]

So your server that will handle all the cameras will be wireless to the AP as well? If this is the case, you could have performance issues unless you get maximum signal on every single connection, which is unlikely with a omnidirectional antenna.

 

 

Even using something like a yagi at the camera end pointed toward the AP/antenna? The AP does have dual radios and each has a primary and secondary antenna connection. I suppose I could get directional antennas(antennai? ).

Most of my distances from the AP/antenna are going to be 1000' or less, but there is that one at the far end of the grounds.....

[WirelessEye 0]

I would use directional antennae for the AP(s). Probably sectors. 1000' feet isn't much distance but with an omni, you are going to be picking up noise from a 360 degree horizontal plane, not to mention the gain isn't going to be as high.

 

Get yourself some 90 degree sectors (amplifier should NOT be used). Amplifiers only amplify problems. If you have a high noise floor, an amplifier is only going to: amplify the issue.

 

You are proposing an "unbalanced" system, which is Ok as most PTMP systems are unbalanced, but an omni with directionals on the other end will not be a good solution.

 

Also, I would use a dedicated backhaul (PTP) for your server to communicate with the AP's.

[nitronick 0]

Post # 10 to post a pic!

[nitronick 0]

Well, it's still not letting me post a pic...

[nitronick 0]

Well, let's see if this will work...

 

Here's a picture of the grounds where I will be implementing my system. The dimensions are 1620ft North to south by 640 east to west, so I have over 2K + feet to the far cams.

 

 

Hopefully you can see where I labeled the camera locations with red letters.

 

B = Ticket Booth

G = Gate

O = Office

 

The ticket booths will have a cam mounted inside somewhere so that I have a clear picture of the occupants and the cash drawers. The gates will have a cam mounted (probably on a nearby light pole) to see if the workers are allowing anyone in without a ticket. Obviously, the office(lower right corner) is where I will be set up. If things go as I hope, I may be able to hardwire my server to the AP, and skip using that wireless link.

I envision mounting two 90 degree sectors on the roof of the office, along with the AP. One antenna aiming toward the two gate/booth entries along the right side of the picture, and the other covering the others. From the looks of it, all cams would be in a pretty much straight line from their respective antenna.

I am worried about picking up the cams that will be mounted inside the ticket booths. Do you think I will need to run a cable and mount a small directional antenna on the roof of the booth?

Well, there it is....Any thoughts? Criticisms? Suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Mitch

Edited April 5, 2007 by Guest

[nitronick 0]

Another thing.....

 

I want to use the highest resolution as I can. Using the free IPCameraCalc I found online, I am coming up with the following numbers:

 

Resolution 640x480

Med Compression (MJPG 20)

FPS 10

 

Multiply that times 11 cameras, and I am coming up with 40.48 mbits/second.

 

Here are the specs from my Intermec WA21 wireless AP:

 

Wireless Characteristics

IEEE 802.11a Wireless Radio

Frequency Band: 5.15 - 5.35 GHz frequency

band

Radio Type: IEEE 802.11a OFDM

Radio Power Output: 12.4 dBm@ 6-36

Mbps, 9.2 dBm @48 Mbps, 7 dBm@54

Mbps.

Radio Data Rate: 54 Mbps, 48 Mbps, 36

Mbps, 24 Mbps, 18 Mbps, 12 Mbps, 9 Mbps,

6 Mbps - automatic fallback for increased

ranges

Channels: United States (FCC) 8 channels

Receiver Sensitivity: -65 dBm @ 54 Mbps,

-70 dBm @ 36Mbps, -82 dBm @ 6 Mpbs.

Range: approximately 10m @ 54 Mbps, 30M

@ 36 Mbps, Unlimited range with roaming.

Compatibility: Designed to comply with

IEEE 802.11a wireless LAN standard for 5

GHz radio implementations

Transmit Power Levels: 12.4 dBm @ 36-6

Mbps, 9.2 dBm @ 48 Mbps, 7 dBm @ 54

Mbps.

Bit Error Rate: 10-5

 

Under ideal conditions the max is 54mbps. Do you think I am running it too close? Should I try and implement 2 APs to lessen the throughput per AP?

[VST_Man 1]

check out the Axis 207MW & the Axis 212.

 

The interesting part about the Axis 207MW is that it is a Megapixel, has decent low light, and the bandwidth used over a wireless blows away all other wireless cams. I just ordered this one to test.

 

Axis 212 is neat but has some low light issues...lighting is critical. Pic is sweet. Can be seen on Video Insight's IP Server WEB site DEMO. http://www.video-insight.com make sure you zoom in and out...pan & tilt also.

[CollinR 0]

Okay I'll be the first to try and show my ignorance maybe many can learn something.

 

This is how I think I would do it.

 

[WirelessEye 0]

Ouch. Our stuff is capable of 108Mbps Full Duplex. I would check your stuff. Just because it says 54Mbps, in most cases what your dealing with is 27Mbps each way. If you use MPEG-4 or H.264, you could do it with 27Mbps. I would also check to see how large of a processor is in your radios-- your AP's might not be able to handle that much data without going bonkers.

 

I would setup a rooftop AP array with Vertically Polarized 90 Degree sectors (4 of them) to 4 individual radios. You would then have reliable 360 degree coverage.