Opinions on best professional analogue cameras

[woodsy 0]

Hi everyone I am doing a university project on CCTV. As a part of this project I have to analysis 3 analogue cameras. It seems the best on the market is the Bosch dinion XF. Does anyone know of an equal or better camera? Any respondence would be appreciated

 

Woodsy

[rory 0]

Hi, first they are not analogue anymore, they are Digital [CCD] nowadays.

However they convert back to analogue for the cable used, in this case composite video (coax, utp, etc).

 

Best Camera is a loaded question, as it depends which application one is referring to. And Best can mean alot of different things to different people, or more importantly, the clients.

 

In the Typical Day/Night application, and with Wide Dynamic capability, would be more in the area of the Panasonic Wide Dynamic Day/Night. However they have a couple variations of this, including their more expensive and much better 1/2" camera.

 

For Infrared applications and an all in one solution, there is the Extreme CCTV EX82, or for further infrared and a longer zoom, the ZX-55. These are dual cameras, with a separate color and separate B/W camera built in, and long range Infrared LEDs.

 

I would also add the GE KTC-2000DN in there as it is an Exview Day/Night camera and has been around a while now. Also has manual switch over and option for an external photocell. A great camera overall. Does not have the Wide Dynamic capabilities of the Panasonic but it does have the Exview chip.

 

There are also License Plate Capture cameras, such as the REG-L from Extreme CCTV, Color Box cameras, such as the KTC-815C from GE, and a huge number of other color cameras from Ganz, Bosch, etc.

 

So there are others and the Bosch Dinion XF is probably one of them, but Ive never used it nor seen any snapshots/video from one in the field so I cannot comment on that camera.

 

Then there are PTZ cameras. They are also considered professional cameras. So the question is pretty loaded.

 

Rory

[woodsy 0]

Great reply, I guess I should have worded my question better.

 

I am looking at indoor high resolution cameras in normal light conditions at the moment. But I will investigate PTZ’s latter.

 

I appreciate your comments Rory.

[rory 0]

No problem, the Panasonic is still great for that.

Obviously GE, Bosch, Ganz (and some others) are also very good.

 

I dont think you will find any 3 cameras that are the best for that type of application, as that is one of the simplest ones to work on.

Even a cheap OEM color bullet looks great indoors (once it isnt pointed at a window or door with a ton of back lighting!)

[phred 0]

The Bosch Dinion XF is considered a top spec camera (in the UK at least)

 

A very good camera often used outdoors in difficult lighting conditions.

 

For good quality cameras that perform well in low light look at the Samsung Techwin range

 

Best low light camera I know of is the VNC 743 from EVS in Russia

 

0.00003 lux (F0.

 

Beyond that you are looking at thermal imaging!

[woodsy 0]

Thanks phred pretty impressive specs.

I am going to look into all camera suggestions thanks

 

woodsy

[cctv_down_under 0]

My two cents...I will say before I start have worked in wholesale for a very long time and have sold almost everybrand and have worked directly for at least one of the above mentioned manufactorers.

 

It really depends on what you want the camera to do, the fact that it is internal and not in harsh light really means you would not need the XF, there have been a few more released since the first XF like the Day Night XF and the Daynight IP camera.

 

I am extreemly fond of the XF series for some major reasons.

 

It has 15 bit capability, this is a bigger data path therefore it can see more light levels and more colours than any other camera in it's class, in my opinion only Panasonic comes close to this, and still falls way short.

 

Because it can see more light levels it can see lower light levels and therefore is an excellent low light camera, so are the Panasonic and Ikegami cameras, keep in mind that although some cameras are rated for low light, there are many ways to cheat the specs and infact some cameras that perform well in low light overshoot during the day - I have had this experience with most Samsung cameras.

 

The Bosh and the Pano can be upgraded with software and they both support configuration from either a Bosch or Pano DVR or up the coax cable, this means once you have your view you can sit back at the DVR to asjust settings and upgrade the camera.

 

Both Bosch and Pano offer long warranties the Bosch being 3yrs, one of the draw cards of the XF is that you can save its settings and flash it to the next camera, which saves a lot of time when doing multiple perimeter o traffic cameras.

 

The other advantages are that it has a cable compensation built in to the camera, thsi means distance runs are not an issue IE coax up to 800 Meters, it also ensures all cameras appear with the same balance on your screen.

 

There are three modes in the Bosch XF, and this means easy set up, they are Traffic, 24hr and Low Light, this means that all the settings for each purpose are automatically adjusted for you.

 

There is also no need to do a back focus with a ND filter on a Bosch camera as this can be simultaed by the camera itself.

 

The camera has inbuilt motion detection ad a dynamic shutter that can adjust itself on the fly but possibly the most powerful option is the input alarm on the camera, it allows the camera to swicth between modes from any closed circuit...IE arm the alrm system and turn of the lights and your camera will switch to low light mode.

 

In my opinion the cameras that I ahve tried so far get this rating out of 10

 

Bosch 9.5

Panasonic 9

Ikegami 8

Sanyo 7

Pelco 6

Samsung 6

Ganz 6

Baxall 5

GE 4

Sunkwang 4

LG 4

 

But that is just my opinion

[phred 0]

cctv_down_under

 

Good post – like the list.

Maybe this should be in a FAQ

[rory 0]

cctv_down_under

 

Good post – like the list.

Maybe this should be in a FAQ

 

That would be nice, but only after side by side comparisons are done.

Notice how his list has GE way beneath Sanyo and Samsung, while i have used their Day Night cameras, and their leading color only cameras, and GE was much much better.

 

I havent used the Bosch XF nor seen any worthy marketing literature, snapshots, or video, and that is one reason why I wont comment on that brand (at this time), if only to be fair. I have seen other bosch cameras at locations and they they are as good as any other high quality camera. Without side by side comparisons of all cameras, we can never say one camera is the best, nor give them a rating over another.

[cctv_down_under 0]

Fair call Rory,

 

But please consider I have sold almost every camera on that list and tested them all thoroughly, I know I am definately...let me say that again...definately biased towards the Bosch range but in my opinion they most certainly are the best.

 

I have used the GE cameras quite a bit and the ONLY reason they are further down the list is because of reliability issues.

 

As a representative and as a advisor to consultants I have compared many products side by side, however never at a level that I am satisfied with (with the correct equipment for testing) comparing side by side is not a fair comparison at any rate, becasue you rarely do a 24hr test.

 

I definately think that because of the xf's 15 bit ability it certainly is the best camera on the market today and with its features it definatley leads the way.

 

I rememebr when this whole forum started and you said the following

 

- I will never use a PC based system

- Geovision is not a very good product

- Standalones are the ONLY DVR you would ever use

 

I wish you would take my word on the cameras and test them I would be happy to offer one to you if you are prepared to pay the frieght to return it, or even sell it to you at a loss to prove my point.

 

I know the products you like and to be honest I agree with most of your recomendations, but I think if you used one you might change your tune..it is important to note though that price is always an option and so is customer service and I beleive you have had a bad experience with Bosch.

 

The prices you mention though are way off the mark and yes I am aware of your importing issues that change your prices but keep in mind Bosch is only a new player and to be leading the market at this early stage is incredible.

 

It will only get better and better from Bosch as they re invest in their organisation becasue they are not owned and spend a massive amount on reseach, I have to admit not a lot has been done with the old Burle/Phillips models but the XF is something to behold especially the Day Night version.

 

keep in mind though that not many scenarios require the use of an XF and in fact in constant and good light almost any camera looks similar.

 

XF's (the XF stands for extra features) are just a camera that suits all needs, they handle smoke filled environments, long cable runs, bad backlight, low light, scenes with loads of different colour ranges, wide dynamic scenarios, and scenes that require dynamic shutter speeds, they have the ability to send ONLY the least noisy frame out of many sampled, reducing storage space and the ability to configure locally, or at the dvr and even off site.

 

I hear people talk about the expense but lets face it you do not make money on cheap systems and also when you take into consideration the following:

 

If an installer charges $60 per hour...

 

- saving on back focus time 25 mins

- no need for a distribution amp Possibly saving $100

- configuration at the DVR end means you do not need to spend money to have someone on the ladder and someone holding it.

- upgrading or changing settings saves around $25 per camera

 

it certainly adds up in the long run.

 

I can honestly tell you in all the time I have sold Bosch product I have seen 3 items fail, 1x DVR which was OEM'd by Bosch 1x Dome camera and 1x full body camera (which had been struck by something) that is amazing!

 

I have nver seen the same reliabilty with any other product and that alone is important, as you grow you put in many cameras, and it does not take long to have sold 352 cameras...if one fails a year you are repaireing and replacing every day.

 

Margins get smaller and smaller and brand names are easier to sell in most places (no not yours)..you really should compare the Bosch product!

[rory 0]

Thanks

 

Freight will kill me from Australia though, but I am prepared to look at getting one to test from a US Distributor. I can't afford it myself though, I would have to ask someone else here to buy it.

 

I must admit though I am in the middle of getting some of the new GE cameras to test as well; these were the ones mentioned on the forum before by the GECamguy in that Beta post.

 

No, never had a bad experience with Bosch, Nor with GE cameras (except their first Ultraview model), no more than any other, nowhere near as bad an experience as WizKid (!). I have seen the cameras around town a couple times though, and used Philips in the past. I just havent seen any video clips or snapshots from these XF cameras, while I have used the GE, specifically their Exview color and Day/Night Exview cameras; which worked great. Also used the Sanyo's and Samsung Day Nighters, and their color counterparts. Havent used Panasonic yet, but seen many video clips and snapshots from them to see how good they are.

 

Im all for making things easier also, thats for sure.

 

As for the DVRs, well I still think the GE DVRs are great, they are still in the field pumping away, but I don't use them anymore for other reasons mentioned before. The only way I use a PC based is if I set it up properly, otherwise I wouldn't count it as stable nor secure, and even then that is still rather questionable. They are easier for me to maintain though down here, if there is a problem, cheaper to import, and have better evidence sharing; those are the main reasons, regardless of the additional features. As for Geo, well thankfully they changed their GUI

 

I think we need to get a little bit back on topic though, have to say that since im a mod

[phred 0]

 

That would be nice, but only after side by side comparisons are done.

Notice how his list has GE way beneath Sanyo and Samsung, while i have used their Day Night cameras, and their leading color only cameras, and GE was much much better.

 

 

For the FAQ I meant the info on the cameras rather than the list.

 

 

 

BTW what is there to stop cctv_down_under sending you a clip from a Bosch XF ?

[rory 0]

 

That would be nice, but only after side by side comparisons are done.

Notice how his list has GE way beneath Sanyo and Samsung, while i have used their Day Night cameras, and their leading color only cameras, and GE was much much better.

 

 

For the FAQ I meant the info on the cameras rather than the list.

 

 

 

BTW what is there to stop cctv_down_under sending you a clip from a Bosch XF ?

 

Dont know .. been waiting for one

[cctv_down_under 0]

I only sell Bosch now, but I am hapy to compare if I had anything, I did make a comparison with Baxall and a few of the bosch cams and I have posted several snapshots.

[cctv_down_under 0]

Camera comparision

 

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6562&highlight=camera+comparison

[phred 0]

Cheers man

 

btw the Samsung overshooting thing is less of a problem for us limeys – we rarely see the sun

[cctv_down_under 0]

I would trade the sun to watch Man U win the double over there, besides I got fair skin

[phred 0]

Sounds like a fair trade,

I am way up near the Arctic circle.

[videobruce 0]

In my opinion the cameras that I ahve tried so far get this rating out of 10

 

Bosch 9.5

Panasonic 9

Ikegami 8

Sanyo 7

Pelco 6

Samsung 6

Ganz 6

Baxall 5

GE 4

Sunkwang 4

LG 4

 

Why did you rate the top few where they are?

I have four Panasonic 232/242 cameras (granted their lower priced cameras) and I'm very unhappy with them. Panasonic has cheapened the camera when they moved production from Japan to Taiwan (believe). The backfocus adjustment is now a cheap plastic ring that rocks (tilts) back and forth when you try to adjust it. That was not the case with the older 232 series with the metal ring. I only consider PQ to be average. One more thing, all four cameras have 'burns' which I though CCD were imune to (none are from any lights or the sun).

 

I also have a older 450 (Super Dynamic) camera. To my huge surprise, that was no better that the cheaper 242 series and that SD feature was only a gimmick just done with processing. I will admit the meun flexibility (once you figure all of it out) was a nice plus, but not at almost 2x the price). I don't know how the current SD3 version is, but that 450 was surely not worth the additional $$ (at the time).

Edited March 21, 2007 by Guest

[videobruce 0]

Being new here I looked through many of the threads and the #1 question that is repeater (with some variations is "What's the best camera........"

 

Has anyone considered some type of FAQ 'sticky' with user reviews of cameras?? Possibly grouped in categories; under $150, $150-$300, over $300, Bullet, IR, Dome etc.

[rikky 0]

coming back on the Bosch discussion, it's indeed correct that the XF is a real camera show case.

Although a camera can be too complicated and expensive if you'd compare it to the standard cameras available on the market.

 

In this case, where we are talking on standard light conditions for interior use, it's still to prove that the Bosch camera will perform much better than the price and feature list pretend.

It can even become too complicated. As different technicians are even not interested in having PC-setup cameras, because 1) not all of them have got a laptop available 2) the more features available, the more things can go wrong.

So that's why still so many dip-switch cameras are being sold in the market today, for a fast and easy job.

[videobruce 0]

Not being familar with Bosch, don't many of the 'better' cameras have 'on screen menus' instead of DIP switches?

[rory 0]

Many have OSD now. That can be a good thing, and a bad thing though.

[cctv_down_under 0]

coming back on the Bosch discussion, it's indeed correct that the XF is a real camera show case.

Although a camera can be too complicated and expensive if you'd compare it to the standard cameras available on the market.

 

In this case, where we are talking on standard light conditions for interior use, it's still to prove that the Bosch camera will perform much better than the price and feature list pretend.

It can even become too complicated. As different technicians are even not interested in having PC-setup cameras, because 1) not all of them have got a laptop available 2) the more features available, the more things can go wrong.

So that's why still so many dip-switch cameras are being sold in the market today, for a fast and easy job.

 

I think the Bosch camera and in particular the Xf is the easiest to set up, for example, there are three modes 24hr, Low Light and Traffic, it only takes two button pushes on the camera itself to change to these modes and they automatically adjust all the settings, IE Low Light increases the gain and Traffic changes the shutter speed, I do not see how it can get any easier than that, you don't have to use a laptop!

 

I don't know how the current SD3 version is, but that 450 was surely not worth the additional $$ (at the time).

 

I must admit I have only used the SDII and SDIII and they are excellent, in fact the SDIII supports backfocus adjustment electronically and even remotely so I can not comment on the others.

[normicgander 0]

I would totally agree with CCTV_down_under regarding the Bosch XF dynamic cameras. Last fall I installed 9 UNPDN28E prepackaged outdoor units for a ferryboat service and 2 at a small airport. The quality of construction is awsome. The UNPDN28E model uses the LTC-0495/21 1/3" D/N camera with a 2.8 to 12mm lens. It even has an installation utility for focusing without the need for an ND filter. BTW-Is Bosch the actual manufacturer of their cameras?

 

As for GEs KTE-2000d/n, I installed 16 of them in 2005 and had to replace around 13 of them because of a circuit defect causing the failure to switch back to color mode in the am. Talk about a major pain for me and my customer. Don't think it's exview also, but is true d/n.

 

Rory is right the GE dvrs are nice units, but they don't make their cameras...