performance challenge to dvr card manufactures

[coolcut 0]

i was reading the following news item at one site ( cctvpro.co.za/blogg )please comment on this.

 

"After six years of testing we have found that every software compression DVR is unsuitable for use. Even the best have intermittent problems of locking up, restarts and other instabilities. Even infrequent bugs, may cause loss of critical recording time.

 

Due to the wide diversity of DIY computer hardware configurations,the rapid advances and changes in computing technology, the chances of your PC being completely compatible are very slight. Installation of a DVR card is a technical function which we have found most DIY users are unable to achieve, with complete satisfaction.

 

You may have more success with hardware compression cards, but then we can guarantee that standalone DVR’s are more competitively priced than Hardware Compression DVR cards.

 

We challenge any manufacturer or Supplier, to prove to us, that their DVR cards will work with anything more than 70% uptime and 70% hardware reliability. Of course we would want nothing less than 99% reliability for a security application.

Even if any can - it is highly likely that every future software update would be accompanied by some bugs and that a standalone machine will be far more suitable.

 

While we can accept this from operating systems like MS , we cannot accept it for security related applications.

 

 

thanks

[rory 0]

They dont know what they are talking about. I hope they aren't in the business.

[securitymonster 0]

It is tough to take a software compression related card and record 720x480 at full frame rate, especially when you have 10 plus cameras. The software compression is so resource hungry!

 

I don't completely agree. I've also personally had the best luck with pre-configured PC based systems as opposed to building your own using the manufacturers capture card.

[rory 0]

Preconfigured is not much different from building your own, yet building your own, once you can do it properly (and its not difficult), can be a lot better in most cases. Its all about hardware build and software setup, and whatever you do, dont just install Windows XP and leave it as default - which BTW most suppliers and manufacturers (preconfigured) actually do.

 

Their challenge really makes no sense, as if a DVR system is not up 100% of the time, short of power outages or hardware failure such as hard drives, lightning, acts of god, etc, then it should not be installed as a security device to begin with. In fact, many Stand alones suffer the same stability issues, especially many of the budget systems - they are still hardware and software - some human somewhere has to build it and code it regardless of the terminology - and in cutting costs and time deadlines, they can also "mess up".

 

Stand alones these days, as with Properly Preconfigured PC DVRs, are simply easier to install - they are already built and ready to go. Personally I rather build my own, as I know im getting a better product.

 

The Resource hungry part may have been true a couple of years ago, but today with the Core 2 Duos and Quad Cores, even the Pentium 4 and Pentium D, and now with 800-1066Mhz+ memory modules and 2GB modules right around the corner, not to mention advanced Mpeg4 codecs, its really not that difficult.

 

For budget jobs, the cheaper stand alones are easier to deal with, ready to go, less frills, but less time spent building, setting up, etc. Higher end stand alones with more features, better stability and support, and longer warranties in most cases, ofcourse cost alot more, and are still more expensive than a hardware compression based PC DVR system.

 

Basically, trunk slamming PC DVR builders give the PC DVR of today, a bad name ..

 

Now that said, good luck getting the dvr card manufactures to reply here without some attempt at advertising .. .. though I welcome their valued technical response on this.

[Metal Shaper Man 0]

Rory, you are something else! Because of your overwhelming interest in this subject, intelligence, and something most important when combined with the fore mentioned, that being, (common sense) you are able to read between the lines. Therefore, you see that the article is nothing more than sales hype or, someone speaking before truly experiencing or investigating something that can work as well or better than what they are trying to promote.

 

I must also say that I find others on this site with great experience and drive as well, hence, making this forum the great value it is. Unfortunately, one might find it frustrating when trying to answer forum questions for those with less experience or interest in expanding their knowledge of the subject.

 

Sorry if I got off the subject. It’s just that I think that articles of this nature only add to the confusion of those with less experience.

[kensplace 0]

After six years of testing we have found that every software compression DVR is unsuitable for use.

 

Every? They tested *every* card, and every setting on every card, on every possible configuration? Wow, they must have been busy..... More likely they are generalising though...

 

Even the best have intermittent problems of locking up, restarts and other instabilities. Even infrequent bugs, may cause loss of critical recording time.

Same thing happens on anything though, from aircraft crashing due to a infrequent problem, expensive standalones crashing occasionally, very few software packages or hardware devices are 100 percent perfect. Most of the problems on a pc dvr (assuming a good dvr card/software combo) are down to user/installer error.

 

Due to the wide diversity of DIY computer hardware configurations,the rapid advances and changes in computing technology, the chances of your PC being completely compatible are very slight. Installation of a DVR card is a technical function which we have found most DIY users are unable to achieve, with complete satisfaction.

 

Thats why the manufacturers publish system requirements, its not the manufacturers fault if you buy their card and try to run it on a incompatible system! The same thing goes with other cards, a graphics card from years ago will not work with a new motherboard, nor will a old keyboard work on a new PC. Its called progress, and can be a pain in the bum at times

For example, original IBM PC keyboards had a larger din plug, which was replaced later with the smaller din plug, which is now being replaced with USB and wireless.

Also, internal cards used to be ISA, since then we have had many new buses, AGP, PCI, PCI-E, etc - all incompable.

Lets not forget operating systems, many different incompatible versions.

But - the manufacturer tells you what hardware you need, and what software... So getting a card to be compatible with your hardware is not a problem if you can read the manufacturers guidelines!

 

 

You may have more success with hardware compression cards, but then we can guarantee that standalone DVR’s are more competitively priced than Hardware Compression DVR cards.

 

Not looked into prices in depth on those, so no idea. But one things for certain, a 'GOOD' standalone is not always cheap.... Plus hardware compression cards will be in a pc, which offers more flexibility, so even if more expensive, you get more room for expansion at the end of the day.

 

 

We challenge any manufacturer or Supplier, to prove to us, that their DVR cards will work with anything more than 70% uptime and 70% hardware reliability. Of course we would want nothing less than 99% reliability for a security application.

Even if any can - it is highly likely that every future software update would be accompanied by some bugs and that a standalone machine will be far more suitable.

 

Easy PC, try geovision and a properly configured/specified PC.

More than likely many other manu's cards would also easy pass this test.

As for software upgrades, those should be tested before being installed anyway.... And the same thing can be said about standalones, many can have firmware updates, what if one of those had a bug?

Some higher end standalone DVR also have control software on the PC, instead of viewing by a browser, you use proper software. That can be buggy, just like a normal dvr cards software, and has the same risk of operating system bugs.

 

Thats why whatever you use, you keep a stable version, clean, and safe - and dont go installing updates till you know they are ok - and that they are needed! If a problem is found, you roll back to the previous state.

[scorpion 0]

I will call this company's bluff! They are completely off the mark.

 

I totally agree in general with what they are saying to a degree. You do get what you pay for! A good company will test, and retest, and debug hardware, and software problems. A really good company will listen to the people once the product is out in the field and will make changes based on this feed back. Yes, there are companys out there that really do not care about the product, or about the people who buy their products.

 

There are companies that are no longer around. Why? Did they fail because of a financial situation? Did they fail to adopt a new technology that has become a standard? Did the competition blow them away?

 

I call their bluff! I install very cheap, and very low end products. If I judge myself in the security arena, I would have to say I am not a "security professional". I fill a nitch market. These are people who do not want the "internet" crud, they do not want the big box cctv in a "box", but they have a serious problem that they have to face. Now that they have been "slapped" in the face with reality they now want to take back control of their lives, and protect their businesses, and/or protect their families. These are not the kind of people who whip out their check book and write a check for $10,000, and have a system installed.

 

Those of you who respond, "Hey you are a professional"! What makes me a professional is that I foam my attic holes, I use low voltage trim rings instead of screwing a wall plate to the drywall. I use caulk where ever, and when ever it is required. I try to give the best view that I can under a tight budget. If I have to, I will put the camera on the far side of the front door pointed at the driveway. You may not see who is at the front door, but you will see who approached the front door, and you will see what is going on with your cars.

 

None of my customers use line conditioners. Very few of my customers use UPS, or somekind of battery back up. I always suggest it, and I always will pursue my customers to do so. If the project is big enough then I will automatically order the power supply w/ BAT. I will plug the DVR in to a ups that is destined for the computer. I hate doing so because it is for the computer. I am now taking away from the computer. If the power goes out for a moment then at least they are still recording.

 

I use entry level devices, with no power line conditioner, no UPS, and I may or maynot have surge protection on this equipment. If all of my installs failed as bad as this article say the equipment will fail then I believe I would be out of business as of yesterday!!!! All of my systems are still running!! Those of you that have ever use entry level stand alone DVRs will come to my defense and say that this is a true accomplishment.

 

To be fair to the article, yes I have more headaches then I should. Yes I have loaner DVRs, cameras, power supplys, and cables for any emergency that may arise. I am on a first name basis with the tech support for most of my dealers. I am not proud to announce that, but I am proud that I can solve any problem that is thrown at me.

 

I challange that article to send me their product and place them in my environments!! I double dog dare them!!!! I triple dog dare them!!

 

I believe that you have to use the right product for the right job. I have seen great products installed by DIY and have it perform so poorly that it has been deemed trash by the client, (how come DIY never throw highend equipment away? It is because they do not use them)!

 

I am truely blessed for I have the greatest customers in the whole world (knock on wood).

[CollinR 0]

This is what I gathered from that...

 

---

1. I am a security professional thats been installing alarms for a long time.

2. I have bought PC hardware for CCTV capture.

3. I followed the installation instructions for the hardware and have had less then desirable results.

4. I have repeated #2 and #3 at least twice.

---

 

 

It's not surprising to me that this is the opinion he has. This is more about an understanding of technology as a whole rather then just building PCs that can record video. You need to have a firm knowledge of many areas before you can build highly reliable systems. I would accept the challenge if it had an order behind it. This guy wants something cheap and as such I think he probably cut corners that shouldn't be cut.

 

Areas you should not cut corners...

 

#1 The hardware you use, use high quality reliable hardware, don't buy the bargin bin power supplies, RAM, motherboards. Save money by reducing the performance level of the quality parts if needed. (ie P4 Core Duo vs. Celeron, do you really need an SLi board, ECC Buffered or not, CL3 vs CL5?)

 

 

#2 Choose the DVR hardware carefully, usually it's hard and software will be the functional limitations of your system. No-names and cheap eBay stuff is not the way to go. Also MAKE SURE IT'S LEGIT!!!

 

 

#3 The disk image, develop a focused disk image and spend much time perfecting it. Don't expect to install XP Home OEM and then go through hardware setup. It'll work but it's far from the right way to do things. Same goes for your *nix flavors however those guys are usually doing it as it's much easier for them to do it right.

[G-Mac 0]

Some thoughts:

 

It is ALL about quality components. If your PC-based system builder will not send you the parts list, assume the worst.

 

Software stability is a matter of good quality control and having that software development and testing team local (as in "not across an ocean") is vital. I don't mind considering a software company that outsources some code-work, but the core development team really needs to work closely with the customer service and and tech support folks.

 

So, what to look for:

Windows XP pro is fine, but a stock config is not. Ask what OS tuning takes place to optimize the system for DVR duty. To be honest, if the desktop is blue and green and the Start Menu is cluttered with the standard garbage (if Solitaire is installed!) they probably haven't taken the time to tune the OS.

 

Dedicated Video Card: Most DVR applications benefit from a good video card. While some companies excel at tuning their app for a very specific on-board video chipset for very specific purposes, this is not the best way to go. And if you are building your own, make sure you ask what video card is going to give the best video presentation on both the Server and any remote clients.

 

So, of course, that's all kinda of an Ad. Email me if you want to know what my company does to overcome the well-known history of PC-based DVR troubles.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

The response to our article was very interesting.

 

Actually the entire gist of the article originated within an extremely price sensitive environment where DIY installs are the order of the day.

 

The target market, intended consumer of the article was the DIY user - very few of these users focus on quality or service as a buying determinant - the majority focus on price almost exclusively.

 

The assertions made in the article relate to cards being bought from ebay, and being installed into existing home computers by DIY users.

 

The intended article objective - which is not effectively conveyed by quoting sections thereof - was to highlight the pitfalls, would be DIY users might face, and that in such circumstances a standalone DVR would be a better option.

 

The challenge still stands, regarding manufacturers who sell direct to DIY users , via informal channels such as ebay, etc with the view to the item being installed by a DIY end user.

 

Indeed, we are guilty of hyping and sales talk, which in effect is what the blog is about - it is interesting that some may have perceived it to be a news site.

 

We do in fact encourage our corporate clients, with the luxury of an IT staff - to lean towards PC based systems. Motivationally - qualified IT staff would find it far more convenient to maintain and repair a PC based system than a standalone unit.

 

Still enjoyed the various views expressed though, and as with everything - does inspire us to pay a little more attention to the perspectice and discernment position of potential readers.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Just as an extra --- you could get away and play even HD on a low spec pc - if you know what you are doing. If you don't you could put HD on the highest Spec PC you could lay your hands on, and never see anything better than Analog.

[tomcctv 190]

Actually the entire gist of the article originated within an extremely price sensitive environment where DIY installs are the order of the day

 

 

Hi tesc. 4 years to reply thats not bad. but have things changed in that time .... yes they have very much with better cards and better display cards.

 

just had a quick look at your site. reading your blogs from 3-4 years ago. i just find it interesting why you first dvr product listed after all you put into your blogs is a basic cif dvr. 4 years ago you talked about quality and now you sell cif

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

I can't really answer your question - as I don't quite understand it!

 

Are you questioning whether a CIF dvr could be regarded as quality? Or whether this specific dvr is to be regarded as quality? Are only D1 Dvr's regarded as quality? or perhaps 1080p cameras only?

 

I can't really understand the rationale behind the question so I'm at a loss to answer it ---could you expand a little?