RG-11 ?? Coaxial Cable

[kpatterson 0]

I have a customer who is in need of 4 cameras on the same plane down a line of utility poles from 800 feet out to 1200+ feet. His property used to contain a Cable Television Headend in a somewhat rural area, any way he has several roles of what appears to be RG-11 Cable ( I can not find any data on the cable and i havent stripped back a end yet) that he would like to use for these cameras. however he also wants battery back up on all the cameras and i've spec'd a transformer UPS solution to drive the cameras and the DVR from the head end. Shouldn't i be using twisted pair and baluns for thi sinstall so i can break out along the way down the line. I intend to put up 2 cat5E cables to further expansion abilities..

 

Am i thinking along the right lines here???

 

Any input would be appreciated.

 

Oh yeah there is a whole lot more cool stuff he wants me to do with the distribution of the DVR output and handheld remote control over the DVR between 2 structures and across 6 LCD's at this time

[jeromephone 6]

That is usually used for the backbone of a cable tv feed you run rg11 and then branch off from that with taps for the indivadual drops. I would not use it as the connectors will run about 8.00 ea and you will need special crimpers for this probably one time use.

[scorpion 0]

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&om=1&ll=29.470912,-95.369015&spn=0.001863,0.004195&t=h&z=18

 

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&om=1&ll=29.471837,-95.372749&spn=0.001924,0.005032&t=h&z=18

[scorpion 0]

What kind of Cat 5 will you be using? Regular Cat 5? Or will you be using outdoor rated heavy duty Cat 5?

 

I concur with jeromephone about the RG 11. On the other hand, Yes you can use it. You may want to test it with a camera, and a monitor prior to running it. *If it is aluminum braided I would avoid it.*

 

For this long run you will want to run AC instead of DC.

 

I am confused?

 

Quote

"Evening all i have sold a gentleman on a lower tier DVR and camera system and when i collected the deposit check he wanted to add several cameras over a thousand feet away from the DVR to view some commercial swim/scuba/fish/rv spot rental areas on a sand pit on the same piece of land."

Unquote

 

Low tier, and then he want a commercial set up, but then again he want to save some money using cable that he already has on hand?

 

Who is going to be responsible for the wiring? If I did the project I would have him sign a written waiver about the wiring. I would want to provide the wire, and then I would provide the warranty on the wire. If I ran his wire, and something were to go wrong he would still have to pay the labor rate. I find most customers act as if they do not have to pay for the install as the wire did not work as to the liking. Then things get a little bitter.

 

I pulled this on a friend of mine. I showed up to his restaurant, and I handed him some eggs, and a package of bacon, and a loaf of bread. He thought I was joking, and I was serious. He finally figured out the point that I was making. He said now I get it. I do not know if these bacon, and eggs have been kept at temp. You might get sick, and I was the one that cooked it!

 

If I were taking on a project this big, and if I was doing it on a shoe string, then I would want something in trade. I would want the project to be of news worthy for TV, or for print. If it does not get my photo, name, or some kind of recognition, then I would not do it.

 

Companys that install CCTV in my area always low ball city, or county projects, and they get their name in the paper. So, and So company install cameras for the local police dept. If you are installing cameras for the police dept then you must be a reputable company. People will be calling on you after seeing this on TV, or in the newspaper. Ask jisaacmagee, he will tell you what TV exposure is worth!

 

http://www.cctvforum.com/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1077

 

______________________________________________________

 

Now lets get your wire up, and going!!!

 

The other question is how are you going to attach the Cat 5 to the Poles?

 

If you run Cat 5, you will still have to run cable for the camera power.

 

I would look for Cat 5 rated for outdoor use, and then I would want it to have a messenger wire so that I can hang it with hooks, and eyes. This is what the cable installers do from the pole to your house. I would not want any tension on the Cat 5 itself. You will have to do the same with the camera power cable as well. This is three cables that will have to run from pole to pole. They will have to be strung one above the other. You will want at least a one foot seperation, more if the poles are tall enough.

 

I would imagine that you can bundle all of the wires together and then zip strip them to a tension wire.

 

The other question is; Who owns the pole? Who paid for them? You may have to ask for permission if they belong to the power company.

 

Outdoor installations require special installation techniques that will enable the cable to withstand harsh environments. When using cable in an aerial application, lash the cable to a steel messenger wire. This will help support the cable and reduce the stress on the cable during wind, snow, and ice storms. When direct burying a cable, lay the cable without tension so it will not be stressed when earth is packed around it. When burying in rocky soil, fill the trench with sand. In cold climate areas, bury the cable below the frost line.

________________________________________________________

 

I am glad that you spec lighting protection, and surge suppression.

_________________________________________________________

 

I am glad to hear that he wants battery back up! This is the hardest sell, and you are way ahead of the Game! Good Job!

 

How long of battery back up will he want? Several hours? 24 hours?

 

How about solar as a backup?

____________________________________________________________

 

Will you need to do license plate recognition?

 

The area that we are watching at each camera, how far away is this from each camera? This will determine what kind of camera we will need at each location, and what kind of lens selection we will choose. Will this have to work at night without moonlight?

 

If security is of the essence then you will want to use Extreme CCTV products. These will retail in the $1,500 to $2000.00 each.

 

If security is not of the essence then your choices are wide open for camera selection.

_________________________________________________________

 

Quote

"The cameras he wants to add to view the commercial operations will be 1 located

on the garage structure and looking accross the corner of the large lake to the

south east corner where he now has several picnic table hut structures that seem

to be drawing the "loud crowd" UnQoute

 

What is he wanting with these cameras? Facial recognition, or does he just want an overview of everything that is going on in this area?

_________________________________________________________

 

Quote

"The other 2 cameras he wants to locate on the telephone pole on the north side

of both lakes that is in the middle of the drive between the two lakes, he wants

one to look at the gate between the two lakes and one to look back east in front

of the rv spots."

 

This is why I was asking about license plate recognition.

_________________________________________________________

 

This is going to get real fun now! I think we can make it happen!

Edited August 29, 2007 by Guest

[rapid 0]

As well, the RG-11 probably has an aluminum foil shield which is fine for CATV, but drastically reduces range for baseband composite CCTV.

 

As Scorpion suggested, 24vac would be recommended to drive the cameras (assuming they are not too power hungry)

 

Outdoor direct burial multi-pair Cat3 cable (baluns will work with Cat 2 and up) zap strapped to the strand along with the 24vac (direct burial) would work. You'll need NEMA enclosures to break out the 24ac and punch down blocks for the video baluns.

 

Yes, you'll need to find out who owns the pole and whether you can even attach anything.

[kpatterson 0]

Ok here goes......

 

i wish i new how to mark up the google images so i can show you all the viewing areas...

 

OK i sold him on forgeting about the old cable but i still have questions on the cabling....

 

Why should i use AC over DC in this situation?

 

And i cant use extra pairs in the CAT5 for the power?...Ergg

 

boy things sure get a lot different when i am not just taking a video signal provided by someone else and dumping it into my distribution system

 

I was out at the site again today and convinced him to use 5 box cameras to cover the commercial areas rather than the 3 i first asked about

 

We are going to continue to have the one on the garage structure on the north east corner of the lake looking south across the lake to the southeast rowdy corner ( he is basically just wanting to see what is going on in these areas, not really for evidence, but mostly as a reason not to let certain people in the park) this camera will be looking at an area probably about 300 feet out in front of the camera but does not care about any of the lake in the foreground, only the shore area on the far side.

 

Now if you look at the earth picture you will see on the north east corner a structure and a slab beside what is a cable system head end that is no longer there. That slab is what is now the garage/gameroom that will serve as my headend, Well follow that drive away to the west and you can see a line of poles running in a straight line along that drive way. Down at the far end of the large pond you can see a green triangle in the middle of the drive way that has a utility pole in the middle of it. That is the main commercial entrance to his operations and that is the pole where he first wanted to put 2 cameras with one looking at the gate in between the two ponds and one looking in front of the rv spots back towards the head end.

 

Here is what i sold him on today to take care of that end of the property.

 

About a third of the way between the pole in the triangle and the gate between the lakes you can see another pole....this is where we are now going to place the camera that is looking at the gate...this pole is about 150 feet from the gate area.

 

now come back to the pole in the triangle and we are now going to put 2 cameras on this pole with one looking each direction up and down the driveway in front of the rv spots.

 

OK now head back down the line east i guess 2 poles and we are going to put 2 cameras on this pole with one looking east and one west..

 

I was hoping to do all this on cat5 with my power coming from the headend so that they can be on the UPS.

 

What do ya'll think??

 

Thanks for the help guys.

[scorpion 0]

While looking at your map, select hybrid. The click on "link to this page".

Right click on this: Paste link in email or IM Select copy.

 

Click on URL in the post a reply. In the text box you will see URL then right click and select paste. Then select submit.

 

Those new to the Forum may have to wait, but give it a try.

[kpatterson 0]

yes the system wont yet let me post any code or do any private messages yet but this thread is going to help me along in that matter i think

 

anyway if you can see all the features i described on the map...what do you think about my line of thinking?

[scorpion 0]

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&om=1&t=h&ll=29.471998,-95.372733&spn=0.000584,0.001186&z=19

[scorpion 0]

Which way do I need to go on the other picture?

[kpatterson 0]

Thanks for the replies Rapid, jerome and scorpion..

 

Yes the customer owns the poles...they were part of the old cable system that actually serviced the whole municipality howevr the franchise has upgraded and now uses a different easement and he was left with the poles and i actually got to scrap out the entire old headend... there was a lot of cool stuff there...

[kpatterson 0]

I am not sure which way to tell you to go scorpion..not sure where your looking and which camera location you want to find... i am going to try to do a sketch and post it as an attachment maybe...thanks for the input guys

[kpatterson 0]

OK Scorpion I figured it out your links are centered on different coordinates..

 

The last google link you posted is in fact centered on the pole...

 

Camera #1

OK to the south east or about 8 o'clock or so you see another pole just beyond the first RV spot there..On this pole we will have 1 camera looking in the direction of the gate to the lake operation which is just off the screen in the same direction as this pole was from the center pole....

 

Camera #2

Now go back to the center pole and we will have a camera pointing east or to the left down the driveway there towards the end rv spot

 

Camera # 3 & 4

from the center pole move back to the right 2 poles ( it is at the end of the driveway on the other side of the fence there ) on this pole we will have one camera looking east sort of and one looking west sort of ( each direction down the drive in front of the RV spots

 

Camera 5

Go all the way down the driveway to the right (to the opposite end of the large lake) and you will find a old satellite headend for the old cable system, this will be across the driveway from a foundation slab and a structure....on the slab in the picture there is now a 2 story building which has a deck looking over the lake... camera # 5 is going to be on this structure looking over the lake to the far corner where there are now covered picnic tables and floating docks.

 

OK

 

Got all the locations lined out

 

I sure wish i could just mark up that image

 

thanks for looking

[scorpion 0]

Can you mark it up, and then send it to me in an email?

[scorpion 0]

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&t=k&om=1&msid=112640594629260770661.000438e2d2fc740314126&ll=29.471781,-95.372652&spn=0.001625,0.002435&z=18

 

In the red areas that are marked, where are we watching? The center of the red area? This will allow us to see the middle area to the back end of the marked area.

 

If you are interested in watching the close to the camera area then we may not get the back part of the area.

 

If I was forced to cover a narrow but very deep "triangle" then I would have to put the camera farther back, and then use a super zoom lens to compress the area.

 

As narrow, and deep as this triangle is, I would prefer to mount a camera in the middle, and use a wide angle to get the far left, and the far right, and not have to worry about viewing deep.

[scorpion 0]

Updated map

 

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&t=k&om=1&msa=0&msid=112640594629260770661.000438e2d2fc740314126&ll=29.471561,-95.372449&spn=0.001765,0.003272&z=18

Edited August 31, 2007 by Guest

[scorpion 0]

Those who are reading this post; Click on the camera icon. Information will pop up about the placement of these cameras, and where they are looking. You can left click on the map, and you can move the map around.

 

Camera 2 that is pointing to the left, is that watching only the road?

It does not appear to be looking at any of the travel trailers? The purple area is to close to the pole to use a zoom lens to compress this area. You may have to move the camera to the right then use a zoom len to get back up on this area. You will then have good visual from the front of this purple rectagle all the way to the back of the purple rectangle.

 

Camera 1 looking down on the area between the two lakes. This is easy as pie. I would use a 5-100mm lens. You will be in the 60 to 80mm for this video.

 

Camera 3, and 4 looking down road on the right hand side of the map. I would use a 5-100mm lens, and it would be set around the 80mm mark. For a narrow, but deep view you will have to move the cameras farther back from the area being viewed. You need to take camera 4, and move it to the left. Mount this all the way down to the start of the road.

 

Camera 3 will need to be move to the right.

 

Now the map should have the two colored purple rectangles with the cameras on the either end. The camera on the left is watching the right rectangle, and the right camera is watching the left rectagle.

 

The above is only for reference. I would have to do an onsite survey to determine the right kind of cameras, and for the right lens selection.

I would recommend 1/3 cameras instead of 1/4.

Edited August 31, 2007 by Guest

[scorpion 0]

Camera 5.

 

You will need a camera with 20 times optical, and you will need 10 time digital zoom. The zoom cameras are marked 220X.

 

You will need this camera to get across the lake. You may prefer a PTZ.

 

A PTZ will be argued by various installers.

 

Cons:

You do not need it.

Expensive.

You will have to monitor it 24/7 for it to be effective.

 

Pros

Your weather changes, and wood ect expands, and contracts. A zoom lens that is moved by an 1/8 of an inch will be way off the object it was looking at. A PTZ will allow you to make minor adjustments as flex goes from contraction to expansion.

 

You can have presets and create a tour. You can have it watch to the left a little bit, then have it go a little to the right.

 

If something is going on you can then have someone manipulate the camera to get a facial shot, or to get the group fight or what have you.

 

If at night you are anticipating an event (halloween pranksters?) you can move the camera from remote viewing from you own home.

 

If your security needs change you can sacrifice this view, to watch another area. When this momentary security issue is over then you can move it back to the park benches. Now your system is flexible as different needs pop up. You will want to mount the PTZ in a way that allow you to watch various parts of the whole property. It's main focus is to watch the picnic areas, and then supplement the other camera as well for multiangle recording.

[scorpion 0]

This is for the readers who have read the following posts....

 

I should call my local newspaper. I would love for them to run a story on how I did a site survey in Houston Texas with out leaving my easy chair in Melbourne Florida! LOL!

 

I love the map features. You have to admit it is a wonderful tool for what I am trying to accomplish.

 

I like to get my customers involved with it. I can see my customers point of view. I can match the installation to their view, or I can educate them to how I would prefer to install it. This saves me from mounting cameras then having a disappointed customer. Some customers have a false idea of what cameras can do. They have seen too many hollywood movies!

Edited August 31, 2007 by Guest

[kpatterson 0]

It is cool to be able to mark up the real image like this aint it, and i love the fact that YOU did a site survey from Florida. I really appreciate your input and i like the idea of flipping camera's 4 & 5 to opposite ends...seems like it would work pretty good BUT, with a super zoom lens wouldn't the entire field look kind of squished up??? just wondering.....thanks for the help scorpion

[kpatterson 0]

Yes he is mostly interested in looking down the roadways, he says he doesn't want to feel imposing to the rv spots, as most of them are actually pretty much permanent spots

[scorpion 0]

squished up???

 

That is exactly what I am trying to do.

 

With out a zoom lens, then I can only watch the front area, or the back area. Moving the camera back, and zooming in lets me watch the whole area.

[kpatterson 0]

yes but would a figure at one end of the rectangle and a figure at the other end of the rectangle look like they are standing beside each other????? and both be in a reasonable focus???

[scorpion 0]

If you have ever watched an action movie, you may have seen a scene where someone is standing by a column of a building. At the next column down there is another person standing there. It looks like they are standing right next to each other, one back behind the other.

 

When the camera angle changes to the front of the courthouse, you then see that the columns are very far apart, and that the people are seperated far to the left, and far to the right. The camera angle moves back to the original view, and now they are close together again.

 

This is a hollywood trick that is used quite often.

Have you ever seen where an object falls on a guy? It looks like it lands on him, but if you saw it from the side view the falling object, and the guy are far apart!

 

Wide angle cameras have their own problems. You can see far to the right, and far to the left. What happens is your distance is distorted!

 

Next time you look at the video of a 3.8mm or smaller look at something 20 feet from the camera in real life, then look at the video. In the video the object looks farther away! This is why cameras at Sams clubs, and similiar places are not good to install. If you were watching your mailbox it would look farther away in the video. How are you going to see who is messing with your mail? You will need a 9mm lens probably for this job.

 

This is why so many DIY get mad at the video systems, and call them junk. They are not junk they are just missed matched!

 

I hope the readers of this post have learned a little about proper lens selection.

[rory 0]

man this is too much to read scorp

 

anyway to save you time in the web browser .. copyright g o o g l e, etc