CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Did anyone use a DVR system with SLI configuration with virtual matrix software utilizing (4) monitors driven by a single computer setup? We have done quite of few dual monitor setups where each monitor contained 16 independent camera shots and by installing them side by side using Articulated Retractable LCD wall mounts.. that gave the user a panoramic view of 32 cameras running from a single computer... It was very interesting until we were give a challenge to perform the same with (4) monitors to control up to 128 cameras and dvrs were in a different rooms... We ended up using (4) 30" HP LCD monitors driven with (2) NVIDIA SLI setups allowing to view up to 128 individual cameras viewed only by a single user with a single computer... (each monitor took 32 individual cameras shot, including ptz domes)... and all the monitors were again hanged from the wall using Articulated Retractable wall mounts.. The idea was to test if we could give the tools necessary for a single user to control up to 8 different DVRs.. and to have one user to manage up to 128 cameras (including ptz domes) from a single workstation... I am sure you guys have done something similar before and I wander how were your experiences with the picture quality and the functionality of such a setups... What did you use for the computer hardware and then the software... Which "Virtual Matrix" setup did you use? I am also sure someone will say this may be is for an enterprise solution, but it has its uses for smaller size operations... Actually we delivered (4) of these sets to a customer site and it worked exceptionally well.. and it actually was a first time I saw an end user really taking full advantage of such a setup... could not believe how fast they moved and how fast they were able to switch between screens and cameras viewing real time and playback simultaneously... What was actually even more interesting was that when the end user was really pushing the system very hard, the processing power and resources were picking under 80% allowing more head room for additional tasks... burning clips with CD or DVD, remote view of other cameras through their LAN, etc... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted September 28, 2007 So was the video coming in over the network or connected to the PC some other way? Also, 4 PCs wouldn't be that expensive, seeing as they have 128 cameras, they could surely afford 4 pcs? Anyway, 1 monitor test .. 5+ year old slow PC. http://www.bahamassecurity.com/tmp/64wayEGWithProcess.jpg (shows performance, CPU usage approx 79% and memory size at 617K, this is on a 2.0Ghz AMD w/ 512DDR Ram, most of the memory load is actually on the creation of 64 Video Windows along with other apps im running and the developing of it over several hours) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted September 29, 2007 So was the video coming in over the network or connected to the PC some other way? Also, 4 PCs wouldn't be that expensive, seeing as they have 128 cameras, they could surely afford 4 pcs? Anyway, 1 monitor test .. 5+ year old slow PC. http://www.bahamassecurity.com/tmp/64wayEGWithProcess.jpg (shows performance, CPU usage approx 79% and memory size at 617K, this is on a 2.0Ghz AMD w/ 512DDR Ram, most of the memory load is actually on the creation of 64 Video Windows along with other apps im running and the developing of it over several hours) All the video was coming from the LAN... for obvious reason, no outside connections were allowed... Each PC is handling 128 incoming feeds overlayed onto 4 individual LCD monitors and each monitor was carrying 32 cameras each... Plus, they had a call up monitor that at any given moment if they cared to view or to playback any incident, almost instantaneously, they were able to pull up that video too.... The end result was to use (4) PC, 16 30" LCD monitors and with combined virtual matrix software and hardware (both software and keyboards), 4 operators were controlling and using 500+ cameras... They had several shifts of personnel that each used this setup for no more than 4 hours (and I guess the rest of the time doing other investigative work)... But it was an eye opener for me to see a full control on so many cameras using so little amount of hardware... I was not impressed on the hardware setup as much I was impressed the way these security agents were taking a full advantage on such a setup... Great group of professionals and they knew exactly how to perform very complex tasks that normally takes an average Joe months to learn (Salvos, etc.)... What this setup basically did for this end-user is undermined the necessity of the actual matrix switch, which still works, but becomes just a possible backup tool just in case anything than may go down.. They also ordered few extra machines just in case something goes wrong (in the computer world as everyone know, it is not if computers fail, rather when they fail). So this way, in matter of less than 10 minutes, they can change a computer that may decided to have a mind of its own... I know that there are few members here that either work for companies who use these type of systems or are actual builders and I want to see if they can jump in and share some info... I think this will be a good learning curve for everyone, including myself, on comparing notes and technological advanced information that I am sure can and will be handy... No comments besides Rory? Hey Rory, can't we interest one of your local Bahamian casinos with a solution like this one? I will not mind flying to Bahamas to show and tell this type of system, as we have few drinks " title="Applause" /> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 29, 2007 Did anyone use a DVR system with SLI configuration with virtual matrix software utilizing (4) monitors driven by a single computer setup? We have done quite of few dual monitor setups where each monitor contained 16 independent camera shots and by installing them side by side using Articulated Retractable LCD wall mounts.. that gave the user a panoramic view of 32 cameras running from a single computer... It was very interesting until we were give a challenge to perform the same with (4) monitors to control up to 128 cameras and dvrs were in a different rooms... We ended up using (4) 30" HP LCD monitors driven with (2) NVIDIA SLI setups allowing to view up to 128 individual cameras viewed only by a single user with a single computer... (each monitor took 32 individual cameras shot, including ptz domes)... and all the monitors were again hanged from the wall using Articulated Retractable wall mounts.. The idea was to test if we could give the tools necessary for a single user to control up to 8 different DVRs.. and to have one user to manage up to 128 cameras (including ptz domes) from a single workstation... I am sure you guys have done something similar before and I wander how were your experiences with the picture quality and the functionality of such a setups... What did you use for the computer hardware and then the software... Which "Virtual Matrix" setup did you use? I am also sure someone will say this may be is for an enterprise solution, but it has its uses for smaller size operations... Actually we delivered (4) of these sets to a customer site and it worked exceptionally well.. and it actually was a first time I saw an end user really taking full advantage of such a setup... could not believe how fast they moved and how fast they were able to switch between screens and cameras viewing real time and playback simultaneously... What was actually even more interesting was that when the end user was really pushing the system very hard, the processing power and resources were picking under 80% allowing more head room for additional tasks... burning clips with CD or DVD, remote view of other cameras through their LAN, etc... I seen a 1024 channel matrix solution and I think that was in 1 PC solution using matrix decode cards! If so a computer can do this you better have a look on the LAN bandwith, with 1024 channels real time there is a lot of data runing around even when using H.264 JD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted September 29, 2007 So a virtual Matrix? I see alot of DVRs have that now .. dont have the $$ for the video cards to test them myself. I do actually have 4x LCDs here though I use ATI Cards myself, I think SLI is nVidia? 128 feeds, what was the hardware, Core 2 Duo (3ghz) or Quad core? or other? How much RAM? No the Casinos here use a Las Vegas company .. cant remember the name off hand but they are governed by the las vegas groups. Plus I could just build it myself if you send me the cards and software I just built a DVR for a collegue here, the new Core 2 Duo 2.67 (there was an older model) with 2GB Dual channel DDR2-800, 3x500GB HDDs, ATI 1550 Video Card .. GigaByte Mobo with the P35 Chipset ... Sata DVD Writer .. Antec Server Case, multiple Antec Fans, 500 watt Antec PSU, Removable Air Filter, Customized Windows XP Setup .. anyway its the fastest PC ive used yet .. my XP Setup helps but in this case alot of it is the hardware .. the newer Core 2 and then the DDR2-800. Nothing overclocked ofcourse. CPU running at full 2666 speed and staying average just under 30 degrees even without AC in the room ... Mobo temp a little higher around 35 degrees. This is loaded with GeoVision 8.12, just using a Budget card right now until they buy the card they want .. but Geo flies unlike it normally does .. I couldnt believe the response from it on this system. Like I mentioned before though Geo really likes more memory, over CPU. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted September 29, 2007 I seen a 1024 channel matrix solution and I think that was in 1 PC solution using matrix decode cards! If so a computer can do this you better have a look on the LAN bandwith, with 1024 channels real time there is a lot of data runing around even when using H.264 JD JD, we are talking about 2 different things.. I belive what you are referring to a single PC being able to pull up individual or few camera feeds from 1024 switch from the LAN regardless where such PC was installed... Do you know if they were running "Virtual Matrix" setup? This facility uses gigabit LAN, but they are in process to take everything to 10Gbit level... which will be yet another very interesting environment to see how all the pieces come together and at very high speeds.. My newest challenge now is to add another piece of hardware and software solution, IntelleView, that will tie the data coming from this facility's POS transactions, alarm triggers from local alarm panels, their access control panels (Softwarehouse) to the appropriate video feed located to appropriate DVR port.. By mid next week, we should have it ready to go, as the only glitch is to finalize the parser for this end user and the rest is no brainer.. At least we hope so... Having said that, we have this weekends and all the way to late Tuesday to finish this newest task and then deliver it on Wednesday... Our only hurdle is compiling Softwarehouse API with Intelleview that is not cooperating at the moment, but I think with some persistentcy, we should fix it (well that is the goal anyway). What is very interesting for me on this project is the availability of the basic hardware and software utilizing off the shelf components and without having to overclock anything at all... It is always fun to play with some newer gadgets and gizmos... and tie them together to work as a complete system... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted September 29, 2007 So a virtual Matrix? I see alot of DVRs have that now .. dont have the $$ for the video cards to test them myself. I do actually have 4x LCDs here though I use ATI Cards myself, I think SLI is nVidia? 128 feeds, what was the hardware, Core 2 Duo (3ghz) or Quad core? or other? How much RAM? No the Casinos here use a Las Vegas company .. cant remember the name off hand but they are governed by the las vegas groups. Plus I could just build it myself if you send me the cards and software I just built a DVR for a collegue here, the new Core 2 Duo 2.67 (there was an older model) with 2GB Dual channel DDR2-800, 3x500GB HDDs, ATI 1550 Video Card .. GigaByte Mobo with the P35 Chipset ... Sata DVD Writer .. Antec Server Case, multiple Antec Fans, 500 watt Antec PSU, Removable Air Filter, Customized Windows XP Setup .. anyway its the fastest PC ive used yet .. my XP Setup helps but in this case alot of it is the hardware .. the newer Core 2 and then the DDR2-800. Nothing overclocked ofcourse. CPU running at full 2666 speed and staying average just under 30 degrees even without AC in the room ... Mobo temp a little higher around 35 degrees. This is loaded with GeoVision 8.12, just using a Budget card right now until they buy the card they want .. but Geo flies unlike it normally does .. I couldnt believe the response from it on this system. Like I mentioned before though Geo really likes more memory, over CPU. Rory, good questions man... The requirement was American Dynamics Virtual Matrix setup... with their latest MegaPower 3200 as a backup... ATI did not work as expected and after few rounds of hardware exchanges with them, we decided to go to NVIDIA solution with EVGA... with 640M on board RAM... Several Motherboards were tested, but the one that really cought out attention was the model from ABIT... that gave tremendously more room for expansion and more room for both video cards... 4GB of Kingston RAM, dual 1G NIC on board... excellent cable routing capabilities and ability to provide 6 SATA connections.. and 1 PATA (we do not use it at all)... SATA DVD burner and few other minor pieces of hardware... We went with AMD's dual core FX series processor that really blew away some of the performance tests that we concluded before using INTEL's solutions... and decided to stay with this AMD solution.. Quad core would have been a better performer, but did not make much sense in the actual performance tests of the applications... The casing, we went with rack mountable 4U setup from Chenbro - excellent case that provides tremendous amount of room for all the fans (use used (6) 60mm and 80mm fans and (1) 120mm fan)... very quite and simple to operate.. As for the power supply, that also was a challenge to choose, as there are so many good ones in the market.. Our final vote went with ANTEC's best... TruePower Quattro with 1,000W that came with all the necessary connections for our video cards, the motherboard, etc... extremely quite and with 85% efficiency... We used (4) hard 750GB SATA hard drives raided... Mirrored of course... The stripped version could have given us more performance, but the applications were more RAM and processor intensive, rather than hard drive intensive.. This way if any of the hard drives fails, the system still is crunching numbers and gave an opportunity to replace the defective hard drive on the fly (all were hot swappable versions)... As for the OS... Well, Win2000 would have been my choice due to its stability, but then we were introduced to a specific version of XP, that is called TinyXP that natively uses maximum of 40MB of RAM in its idle... The most of the services that are totally useless were disabled except what we needed... Few drawbacks... because it is XP, all it could recognize is 3.5GB of the given RAM. Some of the performance that we observed as we started loading the required applications were eye opener.. heck, end the end, this machine became a gaming machine anyway... Duplication of the same setup was a breeze... We had to burn all of them in for 72 streight hours running total of 12 different applications simultaneously and continuously and all the tests were passed with flying colors.. and then they were ready for delivery. After delivery and installation, rest became a history.. Now, the new challenge that we will work through the nights until Tuesday and see if we can delivery everything else.. and if not, well we will give them what is stable until fixing anything that is not 100% I love projects like this... keeps your mind constantly busy and learning every step of the way.. It will be much easier now to work on much smaller scale projects... and the knowledge that can not be bought... you learn as you go... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted September 29, 2007 Sounds good, you could have done 4GB though with 64 bit XP. Also was that DDR or DDR2-533/667/800 etc? (huge diff between 667 and 800 btw). Also its been mentioned on hardware sites that Intel's Core 2 Duos are faster than AMD's similar line up, though cant confirm myself as not used the new AMDs, but the new Core 2's are flying (2.67 at least). Also, TinyXP? Was that an Nlite or PE type version? Only thing I found online for TinyXP was Pirated XP .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted September 29, 2007 Sounds good, you could have done 4GB though with 64 bit XP. Also was that DDR or DDR2-533/667/800 etc? (huge diff between 667 and 800 btw). Also its been mentioned on hardware sites that Intel's Core 2 Duos are faster than AMD's similar line up, though cant confirm myself as not used the new AMDs, but the new Core 2's are flying (2.67 at least). Also, TinyXP? Was that an Nlite or PE type version? Only thing I found online for TinyXP was Pirated XP .. DDR2 of course... using Kingston version... 64 Bit XP actually would not have worked... it is much slower for our application (at one point of time we may have to revisit the code for it to take full advantage of the 64 bit environment)... We looked at Intels solutions... To me this Intel processor is like having a Honda with 1000 HP engine with regular transmission... the engine screams to its fullest power, but the car goes only at the performance of the transmission The AMD solution is much more balanced performer and having on-board RAM controller helps (actually working much faster than independent ships around Intel solution)... Also, it was more cost effective, yet very balanced solution. Pirated OS??? Hell no.. We use the licensed XP software, but use the tricks and tips that TinyXP utilizes to stop all the unnecessary services that chew up resources... We read and actually obtained a documentation what that version actually contain, but used only what we need... I know that TinyXP version of the software is extremely popular with gamers mainly... Friend of mine got me the full documentation... and it allows any XP to be modified and increase overall performance.. It is very extensive on how to heavily modify mainly REGEDIT section and then focus on SERVICES section... It is amazing how much nonsense that original XP actually comes with that does nothing useful, rather clogging up performance and forcing many system instability... My preference always has been and will be Linux based distros, but none of our application will work on that platform....yet! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted September 29, 2007 I know that TinyXP version of the software is extremely popular with gamers mainly... Friend of mine got me the full documentation... and it allows any XP to be modified and increase overall performance.. It is very extensive on how to heavily modify mainly REGEDIT section and then focus on SERVICES section... It is amazing how much nonsense that original XP actually comes with that does nothing useful, rather clogging up performance and forcing many system instability... ! Yep, basically the same thing as Nlite. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted September 29, 2007 You are right... except the write up on TinyXP was more extensive and much more comprehensive.. I belive the guy who wrote it was from England.. and I have been trying to contact him... One of the areas that we are exploring is to take our setups, including all the applications, and embed them onto a flash card... we have all the tools, but do not have the experience as this guy from England... If only I can find him... he could be busy at least for 6 months on these type of projects.. Remember in one of our posts I made a notation of having a DVR box built into a NAS configuration based system and I said I was toying with it? The sucker works and it works better than what we expected.. The prototype has produced much better performance that we thought possible... Once we conclude it and send it to production, it will be a very low cost, yet extremely powerful unit... working with any IP cameras out there or with analog cameras using encoders... I should conclude that project by end of the next week.. thinking of a name for it and can not come up with one.. NAS DVR for anyone? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted September 29, 2007 Sounds cool .. also if you get a chance check out bblean .. its a shell replacement for explorer .. i created a custom installer for that for DVRs sometime back, just never used it out in the field yet, but tested on my PC it worked fine. http://bb4win.sourceforge.net/bblean/ And I agree, Nlite is more of a trial and error thing. Will have to check out that tinyXP thing at some point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scorpion 0 Posted September 29, 2007 Is there a way to do this on a small scale? 16-32 cameras? What kind of virtual matrix is priced at the entry level point? Is there a way of making an NVR for such a small application? I am not interested in purchasing 2 nvidia SLI for quad screens, although I find the concept very interesting! I would like to set something like this up in a City Hall design. This would make an excellant "back bone" for what I need. I have an IT closet on every floor which would allow me to add cameras as needed in the future. Anyone have any info on a rack mounted analog to IP converter for the cameras ran with cat5 passive? Thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted September 30, 2007 Is there a way to do this on a small scale? 16-32 cameras? What kind of virtual matrix is priced at the entry level point? Is there a way of making an NVR for such a small application? I am not interested in purchasing 2 nvidia SLI for quad screens, although I find the concept very interesting! I would like to set something like this up in a City Hall design. This would make an excellant "back bone" for what I need. I have an IT closet on every floor which would allow me to add cameras as needed in the future. Anyone have any info on a rack mounted analog to IP converter for the cameras ran with cat5 passive? Thanks! Smaller scale is actually a no brainer... and will eliminate the need for actual matrix switch requirements... Perfect replacement package for any basic system with 32 cameras or less... But... the package must be from a single manufacturer... as the Virtual Matrix being a software solution must operate with its own DVR API... I know that Bosch has it (probably the most expensive at the moment), and others as well... Before you decide which package that you can use, first you have to stomach the pricing of such manufacturer DVRs... But then again, if you need such application, then the overall pricing is what it is... and you always get what you pay for.. Lets say you have Intellex environment... then solution is extremely simple, as their version of Virtual Matrix solution will work perfectly. I know that Honeywell has their version, which is more enterprise... Everyone has some sort of NVR solution in place and again, they all want you to use their package and to insure that you get locked in, everyones solution is basically is proprietorial... to their IP cameras.. Very few that I know that keep their NVR platform "open" for other manufacturer IP cameras could work.. Are you referring to Encoders in your last question? It is not clear what you are asking, but I assume that you want to take you analog cameras and convert to IP and the way to do it is to use video encoders... and yes, there are rack mountable encoders avail... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted September 30, 2007 Many of the Chinese DVRs based on HikVision have Virtual Matrix also, no idea how good they are though, just saw them advertising it from a couple years back. Geo has something like it but its not really the same, its called the Multi Quad Card, meaning it gives you outputs to multiple monitors with I believe it is 3xQuad and 1x16 views. Tell you what, recon sends me a couple SLI's, Scorp sends me the PC for it, and I will see if I can add it into my software I actually have a dual VGA card installed here, but it just gives you a wider screen, which personally I dont like, so I use it for a single monitor only. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ak357 0 Posted September 30, 2007 Many of the Chinese DVRs based on HikVision have Virtual Matrix also, no idea how good they are though, just saw them advertising it from a couple years back. Geo has something like it but its not really the same, its called the Multi Quad Card, meaning it gives you outputs to multiple monitors with I believe it is 3xQuad and 1x16 views. Tell you what, recon sends me a couple SLI's, Scorp sends me the PC for it, and I will see if I can add it into my software I actually have a dual VGA card installed here, but it just gives you a wider screen, which personally I dont like, so I use it for a single monitor only. No Rory HikVision actually have powerful PCI Matrix card Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
