Here is a fun question for the pros here

[rpogge 0]

I have a customer with a pretty much unlimmited budget.

 

They want one thing, a single camera mounted on top of thier observation tower (yes thier house has an observation tower built into it which is about 3 or 4 stories up in the air)

 

Here are the requirments.

Pan Tilt Zoom (and PTZ from internet)

Massive Zoom (they are zooming and PTZ'ing around about a 200 acre meadow that surrounds the house)

Best image quality available day and night.

(I am assuming they are going to need true NightVision for nightime viewing at such distances) - GenIII+ nightvision optics minimum.

and of course the best Image quality I can get, 2 or 3 megapixils minimum I would think. More would be better.

 

The ability to easily record video on demand, I.E. you are PTZ around and find somethign interesting, hit a button, and record video to a computer in the highest quality possible. ... The camera will not be used to record 24/7 ... but there could possibly be sittuations where the user might want to record a certain area for a few hours /days ... but in general just when they see somethign of interest.

 

I almost feel like I could get the best results by using a real video camera of some sort w/ zoom lense, nightvision, and mounted on a PTZ device, interfaced to a PC.

 

But I am not sure how the nightvision part would work, because that has to be pysicaly mounted in front of the lense, which would create a problem durring daylight hours, Might need 2 seperate cameras, one day, and one nightvision ... but I would rather day / nightvision switching be transparent to the user.

 

So does anyone have any ideas?

 

[Lolo Wolf 0]

"unlimited budget"....look at Extreme solutions (Extreme CCTV) look at their long distance products perhaps multiple IR units combined with a quality PTZ for flooded and spot IR coverage.... (My home use is panasonic combined with Extreme IR UF500s and static cams for my property view... 45acre mountain and pasture mostly monitor critters and rare moments of trespass caught a party jackin a elk 2years ago) Extreme has excellent support and Panasonic make good reliable products. 200acre, you may want to advise your client on secondary cams in conjuction with a primary PTZ mounted on house... dedicated dvr/ip setups lot of members/dealers on this site have info on the latest technology.... if you choose to go the ip/megapix cam route... as far as IR I highly suggest Extreme products.

[rpogge 0]

I need to get the actual yardages, I think the clearing is actualy 100 acres.

They want 360 degree pan , so i think Illuminating everythign with IR would be out of the question just due to the complexity of flooding that much open space with IR. I was hoping there was something out there that was true nightvision. I haven't been able to find anything though.

I have a Gen III+ mill spec night vision this one: http://www.opticsplanet.net/us-nightvision-14-g3.html And I can (i think) get an adaptor to fit it to a camera lense, so I think I can probably get it onto a video camera of some sort. the question is has anyone tried anything like this in conjunction with a megapixil cam ? If so how is the image ? I might have to do two seperate systems to get the results I want, one for day, one for night.

 

What do you guys think ?

 

"unlimited budget"....look at Extreme solutions (Extreme CCTV) look at their long distance products perhaps multiple IR units combined with a quality PTZ for flooded and spot IR coverage.... (My home use is panasonic combined with Extreme IR UF500s and static cams for my property view... 45acre mountain and pasture mostly monitor critters and rare moments of trespass caught a party jackin a elk 2years ago) Extreme has excellent support and Panasonic make good reliable products. 200acre, you may want to advise your client on secondary cams in conjuction with a primary PTZ mounted on house... dedicated dvr/ip setups lot of members/dealers on this site have info on the latest technology.... if you choose to go the ip/megapix cam route... as far as IR I highly suggest Extreme products.

[Lolo Wolf 0]

With your unlimited budget I would not waste time with the so called "military ir" retail websites...most of those products are touted for the consumer like toys and gadgets as well a lot of the devices are so called military surplus and outdated technology if you want to get serious with the spec on your application look at professional industrial/law enforcement gear...be aware of the laws which apply to so such sales a vast majority of such equipment is regulated by the US state Dept under ITAR title 22 considered ARMs traffic you maybe checked to insure that it is for domestic use only not for export. Take a look at FLIR systems: http://www.cvs.flir.com/security/products/ptzcameras.cfm From reading your application I really think you should do a walk through and try differnt IR light sources .. (my original suggestion Extreme IR, you may be surprised how effect their units are when placed properly incojunction with quality cameras) secondary cams as well, I really dont think there is a magic bullet here for a one cam do all for what you are trying to achive. Consider placement.. distances.... scope and review the planes that intersect one another to get a proper handle on working with IR you really need to take the time and energy to lay it all out to achive a professional setup....dedicated cams designed for your nightvision application would be the best route instead of adding more gear into the mix with a night scope adapted to a camera....just my 2cents....good luck

[rpogge 0]

*edit - I see your from northwest montana, that happens to be where this will be - Condon to be exact!(between Missoula and flathead lake)*

 

also, originaly(6 months ago) the plan was just to use a single

sony PTZ http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=10001&p=20&sp=165&id=83242&navid=network_cameras

I think we can do much much better, the resolution on that one(333k pixels) is not going to be acceptable IMO)

 

Thermal Imaging - Woah thats some nice gear!

The main purpose of the camera is wildlife observation elk/deer/grizzly bears mostly at several hundred yeards+ remote viewing/remote pTZ from the internet is required. Hence the want for very high resolution / and zoom. After lookign at the link you provided I must say thermal imaging is awsome, and probably way better than nighvision for detecting animals at night. However I think nightvision probably produces a better picture. The house and tower are dead center of a great big meadow and the idea was to put a single camera at the tip of the tower so that it can PTZ 360 degrees, and basicly for the user to be able to ptz and see anything they want anywhere on the property.

 

 

Maybe I underestimate IR spotlights, but it seems like it would take a bloody mess of them to flood an area that big. while cost is not realy a factor, complexity is ... Id rather not have to figure out how to run 50 seperate IR lights all over hundreds of acres of meadow, and figure out how to power them all.

 

I know using secondary cameras would allow me to use less powerfull cameras, but thats not realy what they want.

 

Let me change the requierment slightly, if I forget about the night vision for a moment, or say that im going to go with two seperate systems for day/night.... What camera will give me the very best image quality in daylight at those type of distances?

 

I feel like if I didnt need the remote viewing, remote PTZ functions I would want to be using just a regular video camera with a big zoom lense.

To be honest I think the perfect device would be a high def digital camcorder with a 600mm or so zoom lense on a tripod... but then I have to interface it to a PC somehow so that I can get remote view/ptz.

 

Pretty cool aplication realy I can't wait to get something worked out.

will definantly be posting pictures when I do the project. Myabe some big mean grizzly bears will wander through will i'm there =p

 

Thanks for the input.

Ryan

 

With your unlimited budget I would not waste time with the so called "military ir" retail websites...most of those products are touted for the consumer like toys and gadgets as well a lot of the devices are so called military surplus and outdated technology if you want to get serious with the spec on your application look at professional industrial/law enforcement gear...be aware of the laws which apply to so such sales a vast majority of such equipment is regulated by the US state Dept under ITAR title 22 considered ARMs traffic you maybe checked to insure that it is for domestic use only not for export. Take a look at FLIR systems: http://www.cvs.flir.com/security/products/ptzcameras.cfm From reading your application I really think you should do a walk through and try differnt IR light sources .. (my original suggestion Extreme IR, you may be surprised how effect their units are when placed properly incojunction with quality cameras) secondary cams as well, I really dont think there is a magic bullet here for a one cam do all for what you are trying to achive. Consider placement.. distances.... scope and review the planes that intersect one another to get a proper handle on working with IR you really need to take the time and energy to lay it all out to achive a professional setup....dedicated cams designed for your nightvision application would be the best route instead of adding more gear into the mix with a night scope adapted to a camera....just my 2cents....good luck

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Ok Ryan, if you are going to layout and install soon remember the weather out here and also due to the very bad fire season we had this year there is a lot of bear and cats that have relocated themselves closer in to undisturbed areas. A bear you may.... see... lots of elk and deer but a cat will be lookin at you a long time before you ever knew it was there. I have installed and worked in lot of the lake areas....Seely/Swan Kalispell... Glacier.....built some custom log and timber gated/tele entry systems with cctv for some california based corp clients up there.... dependent on how far you are in, when in the field...private property, backcountry, wear a sidearm and let people know where you are working. Good luck

[CollinR 0]

A megapixel on a scanner will dominate just about everything but thermal.

[rory 0]

Their budget may be unlimited, until they see the price tag on the Flir Systems. Most countries cant even afford those.

 

Also, hope that tower is very very tall.

[rpogge 0]

How much $?

 

Its around 4 stories tall. Why ... is thier a minimum range on those cams?

 

 

Also, hope that tower is very very tall.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Guest

[CollinR 0]

$10-50k USD per cam without any telemetry or recording capability.

[rpogge 0]

Yeah they have seen many grizzlies this year, he just had a close encounter, grizzly came up over an overhang about 15 feet in front of where he was sitting a few weeks ago while elk hunting. and a second when a grizzly charged him while he was calling with a baby elk call, came busting out of the brush about 30 yards ahead of him dead run straight for him, changed its mind about 15 feet out when it saw it was not a baby elk, and veered off into the brush. !!!

 

I myself am from Maryland, I'll be out there over xmas to take a better look, probably won't install till it thaws out in the spring. I might install over xmas if the weather permits and if its not too difficult of an install(if i just go with 1 ptz).

 

Ok Ryan, if you are going to layout and install soon remember the weather out here and also due to the very bad fire season we had this year there is a lot of bear and cats that have relocated themselves closer in to undisturbed areas. A bear you may.... see... lots of elk and deer but a cat will be lookin at you a long time before you ever knew it was there. I have installed and worked in lot of the lake areas....Seely/Swan Kalispell... Glacier.....built some custom log and timber gated/tele entry systems with cctv for some california based corp clients up there.... dependent on how far you are in, when in the field...private property, backcountry, wear a sidearm and let people know where you are working. Good luck

[rpogge 0]

Not out of the question. So if im understanding this right, these cams can also track heat? Like if something walks across its field of view it could PTZ to follow the heat source automaticly? That would be ... awsome.

 

$10-50k USD per cam without any telemetry or recording capability.

[rpogge 0]

A megapixel on a scanner will dominate just about everything but thermal.

 

a Scanner is what?

[CollinR 0]

It's a base that allows you to position normally fixed box and housing style cameras. As a package it's going to cost more then most if not all all-in-one PTZs but offer much more performance. With a full size full length housing you can have a dual imager megapixel cam with motorized mega lenses that also can pan and tilt. Basically the really good stuff will not fit inside that little ball of a PTZ.

[rpogge 0]

It's a base that allows you to position normally fixed box and housing style cameras. As a package it's going to cost more then most if not all all-in-one PTZs but offer much more performance. With a full size full length housing you can have a dual imager megapixel cam with motorized mega lenses that also can pan and tilt. Basically the really good stuff will not fit inside that little ball of a PTZ.

 

That sounds like what I need!

WHat brand should I look at for the scanner? I assume it has a builtin network interface of some sort also? Or would I need to interface this to a PC?

[rpogge 0]

Im looking at a GANZ MP3-DN, It is the only dual imager megapixel I have found so far.

 

http://cctvpros.com/Product/12125/Ganz__12_Dual_sensor_daynight_megapixel_CS-Mount_IP_camera_3MP15MP-MP3-DN.htm?back=%2fproducts%2fAll%2f1150-Megapixel%2f5%2f20page.htm

 

I also found a motorized lense that goes to 750mm, not sure if its compatable.

 

http://cctvpros.com/Product/8900/Rainbow__Motorized_zoom_-_12_Format_30-750mm_F46__auto-iris_Video-H25X30MGE.htm?back=%2fproducts%2fAll%2f41-Motorized_Zoom%2f4%2f20page.htm

 

 

And for a scanner I found this one:

 

http://www.surveillance-video.com/pelpsoutscan.html

 

 

How does that look so far (especialy the lense).

I saw Ganz has a 5MP cam too, but its not dual imager.

Anyone know of a dual MP that is > 3MP ?

[rory 0]

for 200 Acres and what you want to do, Flir seems like the only option, think more in the $500k+ price tag for those features.

[rpogge 0]

Its more like 100 acres I think, and I need to get the distances still from tower to treelines around the perimeter. I'M not sure how much of the total acerage is trees vs meadow ... Im not very good at judging acerage by lookign at it. It seems like 300 - 500 yards or so to the treeline in some spots. Let me get some exact measurments ...

 

I think after speaking with him again, that nightvision is not a requirment anymore, he would rather have better quality in daylight than sacrefice that for nightvision. So .. im looking for the highest res megapixel I can get my hands on (5mp ganz is best io have found so far), and That 30-750mm lens is looking real nice! Its $5,000 by itself ... which is fine if it works. throw in a scanner and some type of user interface and we are set.

 

for 200 Acres and what you want to do, Flir seems like the only option, think more in the $500k+ price tag for those features.

[rory 0]

Someone posted a link to a camera that does 20 megapixel before, I could not find it right now though, will try again later. It was setup at a sports stadium, wasnt bad, could digitally zoom right in on the people's faces.

 

If you are looking for decent lenses, stick with Fujinon or Computar.

[rpogge 0]

Someone posted a link to a camera that does 20 megapixel before, I could not find it right now though, will try again later. It was setup at a sports stadium, wasnt bad, could digitally zoom right in on the people's faces.

 

If you are looking for decent lenses, stick with Fujinon or Computar.

 

Oo. yeah find that link please

 

And yes .. definantly need decent lens's .. in fact I'd preffer the best lens's as opposed to decent

 

WOW http://www.fujinon.com/Security/ProductCategory.aspx?cat=40

 

check out those videos towards the bottom, those lenses are friggin awsome

 

Speced at 1500mm ! wow

Edited October 16, 2007 by Guest

[rory 0]

Yep, Extreme CCTV uses Fujinon lenses also.

Will take a look tonight again for the link.

 

http://www.extremecctv.com/products_video.php?vid=37

http://www.extremecctv.com/products_video.php?filter=market&filter_id=9

[DHOWARD 0]

Take a look at the Pelco ES30TI thermal imaging optics

[Lolo Wolf 0]

A little off topic but a R&D buddy of mine that dabbles in astronomy sent me this link from a project in Hawaii.....1.4 giga pix..great for lookin at purse snatchers in outerspace.... http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/info/press-releases/GPC/GPCflash.html

[ak357 0]

A little off topic but a R&D buddy of mine that dabbles in astronomy sent me this link from a project in Hawaii.....1.4 giga pix..great for lookin at purse snatchers in outerspace.... http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/info/press-releases/GPC/GPCflash.html

 

Another link for u

 

http://www.docbert.org/SydneyByNight/main.html

http://www.docbert.org/ChicagoByNight/

http://www.docbert.org/MP/

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Thanks for the links....wonderful pics