Black and white (really low light) camera recommendation

[CSCOUT2001 0]

I have read in many post that Black and white cameras are used by many in low light bar situations, I am trying to cover the back area of a comedy club.... very low light and 15 to 20 ft away. There is light from the stage but not enough to light up the back of the audience. We have tried:

 

Ganz day night (not working in this scenario) usually does a good job though

Samsung Low light WDR camera (works but it to grainy and has that ghostly affect. Very good if nothing is going on, but as soon as you walk through the picture, you can see that it is a human but no face recognition.

 

Looking for a good black and white camera and brand, would consider an IR camera if needed.

 

Thanks

 

Still following up on the other post I asked about, Will give details soon

 

Any suggestions

[CollinR 0]

Panasonic WV-BP334

 

Far from the cheapest but not too bad either.

[rory 0]

Look for something with Exview, there are many models from different brands, in bullet or box cameras. Either way, any standard BW bullet camera will outperform the cameras you have already used, in that low light situation.

[CameraGimp 0]

I second Rory. The best low light performance without using slow shutter/frame integration is going to be from a monochrome Exview CCD.

[CollinR 0]

All the EXView stuff I have played with had a buttload of noise in the signal, have they improved? I haven't used an EXview cam in probably 3-4 years because of it.

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Extreme EX14 D/N or BW you can also get with a varifocal lens if needed and built in IR or without and use a external IR, just installed one for a client set up (outdoor application) with a external UF100.....good picture better after contacting Extreme and locating the adjustments for the auto iris...cam performs well without IR in dim light as well... your application indoor maybe look at Extreme line of ....I would stay clear of the wizkid line...Nuvico has improved got a good pic with the new SD- 3895N you can tweak it a bit (menu driven access with cover off) dont like their domes their new mini PTZ has benched well for me.....also look at Panasonic low light domes excellent performers Extreme and Panasonic more money but in short... they just work and work well (you didnt say if the cam needs to be discreet if you do go with a IR remember the glow...720nm bright red...850nm faint red...940 invisible, depending of the layout of the room and how much image you want to recover setting up a external IR with a good quality BW camera will allow you a lot of flexibility if you are seeking critical ID and security observation I would really consider the Panasonic and Extreme line)

[rory 0]

If you want the lowest lux without IR, then it has to be Exview, slow shutter is even worse for other reasons. Exview will outperform other BW and still be very clear without pixelising, unless it gets very very dark (near pitch dark) then that is when it pixelises, and if you cant live with the pixelising, then it is simply too dark and you need IR or additional lighting.

 

For night clubs, all you really need are BW OEM bullets, black casing, you put them where they cannot be seen or touched, as they are so small, and black, they are near invisible. As they are so cheap, they can easily be replaced as time goes on, or in the case of damage for one reason or another - even the best cameras on the market have occasional problems, and that goes for Extreme's also.

 

If its one of those "sweatheart" type bars or clubs though, then you will more than likely need IR, as I know they like their lights dimmed right down until you can barely see anything at all.

[CSCOUT2001 0]

The area is pretty dark, I would not say it is completely dark but you are feeling your way through the chairs to sit down. It is a comedy club and in the back rows.

 

It is roughly 15 to 20 feet from where the original camera was installed, here is a question... has anyone had any luck with the EverFocus EQ 500 with Pole Vision? I am interested in the bullets with Exview but what are the manufactures that are being used and hold up.

 

I keep looking at the Panasonics but prices are way up there...

 

still looking

[Lolo Wolf 0]

I think you mean the EQ 550 T / EQ 550 D Polestar Camera ..... havent used Everfocus gear in years but the spec looks interesting if you hang one let us know how it performs

[survtech 0]

Try the Genwac GW-902H 1/2"CCD Monochrome Camera:

 

"Introducing the new highly sensitive CCD sensor, visibility is assured in conditions with a minimum illumination of 0.0003 lx. (F1.4). Approx. 2.5 times more sensitive in the visible ray wavelength. * Approx. 3 times more sensitive (940nm) in the near-infrared wavelength. * Smear can be reduced by approx. -10dB. * Using an infrared beam (700nm~950nm) an object can be monitored in darkness. High resolution: 380K(EIA) 440K(CCIR) pixels (570 horizontal TV lines). "

 

It's 1/2" so you can't use a 1/3" lens. But it is tiny.

[Lolo Wolf 0]

I agree with Rory "even the best cameras on the market have occasional problems, and that goes for Extreme's also" However beyond all the hype and claims Ive found over the years a few brands stand up for themselves in quality and support. Things have changed within the manufacturing sector on a global scale touching all consumer goods from electronics to autos etc, profit driven slick sales work and indeed flooded markets including CCTV products. Truly a good tech can make any camera perform well even a cheap OEM bullet at least to its limitions but Ive had less call backs hangin Panasonic and Extreme for my applications which are mostly outdoor harsh sites. Branded or not seems everything these days originates from common ground with a few exceptions. I retired after 36years of heavy/highway/tunnel construction before getting into CCTV and one thing Ive learned is very often you dont get what you pay for as a lot of members here use as a catch phrase. You only can try to get what works over time and hands on trial in the field with research/feedback from respected sources and information that peers can offer. David Elberbaum hit it right on target with his commentary although he was pumping some good pr for his company (Elbex) , but still a lot truth in his observations: http://www.cctv-focus.com/cctvfocus37_unravel.pdf

[CameraGimp 0]

I'm just throwing in for Exview again. It is the most sensitive CCD on the block. Granted if you put it into a weak camera you won't get the best out of it. Panasonic do not use Sony CCD's, or they didn't when I tested cameras three years ago.

The camera that Lolo Wolf has suggested looks exactly like one we had in the UK (I can't for the life of me remember the brand). I tested one of their low light cameras once and was very impressed, I thought it was going to be a novelty due to its small size but it had excellent low light performance. The fact this is a 1/2" camera makes me suspect it is by the same manufacturer as 1/2" used to be a mainly UK/Europe market.

 

If that is the case I would recommend it. I'll try and remember the UK brand name.

[survtech 0]

1/2" imagers (and, I assume, larger), with proper design, should be better for low light because the larger chip can gather more light. The larger 1/2" optics should be able to focus more light, too.

[rory 0]

I used an Extreme CCTV 1/2" Camera before, didnt notice any difference, in fact I ended up switching it out to a Sanyo 1/3".

[CollinR 0]

1/2" imagers (and, I assume, larger), with proper design, should be better for low light because the larger chip can gather more light. The larger 1/2" optics should be able to focus more light, too.

 

True but 1/2" gear costs $$$.

[survtech 0]

True but 1/2" gear costs $$$.

You get what you pay for. It's available for less than $300 + lens.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

I have read in many post that Black and white cameras are used by many in low light bar situations, I am trying to cover the back area of a comedy club.... very low light and 15 to 20 ft away. There is light from the stage but not enough to light up the back of the audience. We have tried:

 

Ganz day night (not working in this scenario) usually does a good job though

Samsung Low light WDR camera (works but it to grainy and has that ghostly affect. Very good if nothing is going on, but as soon as you walk through the picture, you can see that it is a human but no face recognition.

 

Looking for a good black and white camera and brand, would consider an IR camera if needed.

 

Thanks

 

Still following up on the other post I asked about, Will give details soon

 

Any suggestions

 

Which Ganz camera did you use?

 

I read all the posts in this subject and the pricing that everyone are referring to varies between $200 to over $1,000... What is the budget that you have in mind?

 

There are many choices from brand manufacturers.. which one will fit the bill has everything to do with the price range that you are looking for.

 

Let us know what is your budget.. and I am sure the answers will be a lot more focused, rather than covering huge price range that do not answer your question...

[rory 0]

The area is pretty dark, I would not say it is completely dark but you are feeling your way through the chairs to sit down. It is a comedy club and in the back rows.

 

It is roughly 15 to 20 feet from where the original camera was installed, here is a question... has anyone had any luck with the EverFocus EQ 500 with Pole Vision? I am interested in the bullets with Exview but what are the manufactures that are being used and hold up.

 

I keep looking at the Panasonics but prices are way up there...

 

still looking

 

 

Hi, the problem with a dual day night camera is that it wont see as much in low light as a BW only camera, even if its exview. Ive used standard BW bullets for several years in the club. Ive also used some mini BW exview bullets recently and they were great, but the distributors have now stopped selling them. I just ordered some High Res Exview BW bullets though, so will see how they perform.

 

KPC-EXH190SWX - KPC-EXH190SWX 1/3" Sony ExView CCD 600 TV Lines Weatherproof Bullet Camera

 

However, if it is really dark as you mentioned, you may need IR either way. Exview works by gathering all available light in the picture and spreading that over the entire image, so that is why you will get more pixelisation as the light in the image diminishes.

 

Your best bet would be a BW camera, any high res one, then add additional IR bulb/LED, which can be mounted at a lower level than the camera and point it upwards so it does not reflect off the people or other objects, as then they would just be one big glare. You should look into something from Extreme CCTV, they have the IR Cubes which are fairly covert, and you can adjust the level of IR if needed, as well as choose the beam and filter required.

 

The EX12LED is comprised of 42 LEDs mounted to a solid core CNC machined aluminium housing that acts as a heat sink. A voltage regulator allows for 12 VDC or 24 VAC operation. An adjustable photocell allows the installer to set the ambient light level for on/off operation. The EX12LED is

available in 850nm or 940nm, 30 degree or 60 degree beam patterns achievable beam distances of 10 to 40 feet (3 to 12 meters).

 

http://www.extremecctv.com/product_detail.php?producttype_id=1&page=1&product_id=12

 

Depending on the area to cover though, you may need something with a longer IR range, such as the EX26LED (30-60' approx) or the UF100 (50-150' approx) both depending on the filter and beam selected, as well as the installation location and adjustments.

 

You can adjust the level of IR on both the EX12LED and the EX26LED using a pot level, but on the UF100 you would need to tweak the PSU to step down the amount of power being sent to it, which lowers the IR output.

 

Rory

[CameraGimp 0]

You need to come to the UK for affordable 1/2". We still use 1/2" quite widely for our city centre cameras.

 

The JVC TKC-1380 that was once the system camera of choice in the UK was a 1/2" camera in PAL but a 1/3" camera in NTSC.

 

I used to work for a company that was Sonys largest customer for CCDs in Europe, and we rarely bought 1/2" in EIA/NTSC and when we did it was for none US markets. The US market just didn't exist for the 1/2".

[CSCOUT2001 0]

Price range is 200.00 to 250.00.

 

The Ganz was the YCH-03A with a 2.8 - 12 mm lens... usually does an excellent job but just not enough light this time around.

 

Hope this helps

Thanks

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

Price range is 200.00 to 250.00.

 

The Ganz was the YCH-03A with a 2.8 - 12 mm lens... usually does an excellent job but just not enough light this time around.

 

Hope this helps

Thanks

 

Your choice of Ganz is an excellent camera and priced very low (being day/night and good performer). What is important is the type of lens that you used.. Can you please let us know which lens you used with this camera?

 

Hi res B&W cameras could do the trick... I have seen few recommend Panasonic solution, some talking abut ExView, some talking about 1/2" B&W cameras, etc...

 

Rory has a good recommendation about IR based solution, but I am not familiar with the camera not can make any comments.

 

For the price, you have quite of few choices... My personal recommendation is CBC BCH-IR39A bullet camera that is an excellent performer... We used this camera in the bars with various lighting or no lighting conditions and were able to provide good performance - for the price!

 

Here are some of the specs:

 

* Bullet Camera with Outdoor IR Camera w/3-9mm A/I lens, 480 TVL, 12 LEDs, 12VDC/24VAC

* 480 TVL color model

* All weather outdoor performance

* 12 IR LEDS provide up to 50' illumination range

* Light activated photocell turns on IR lights at night

* 3-9mm auto iris lens

* Universal swivel bracket (top or bottom mount)

* 3' cable with power and BNC connectors included

* Service monitor connector

 

This above model pricing does fall into the price range that you mention and comes with your standard 3 years warranty...

[CSCOUT2001 0]

It is the CBC america (GANZ) 2.8 - 12 mm lens.

 

Computar 2.8-12mm Auto Iris Varifocal Lens (TG4Z2813FCS)

 

would you recommend a different lens?

 

I will look into the camera line up you mentioned.

 

Thanks

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

It is the CBC america (GANZ) 2.8 - 12 mm lens.

 

Computar 2.8-12mm Auto Iris Varifocal Lens (TG4Z2813FCS)

 

would you recommend a different lens?

 

I will look into the camera line up you mentioned.

 

Thanks

 

I spent some time to check the specs of the camera... and with its lux rating, you can not get any decent picture in a dark areas... Your choice of the Computar lens is as good as it gets for the price...

 

Good luck...

[CSCOUT2001 0]

Conclusion

We went back to the site with an IR Illuminator and a black and white 600 TVL box camera and lens. Before we pulled down the Samsung box camera, we went into playback to watch the video. In a working environment, with people at the show, the Samsung was holding its own, yet still had a ghostly appearance.

 

We put up the new IR Illuminator and the B/W camera and this really did the trick. Actually we could see a whole lot more than what we actually needed to see. We narrowed the view down to the area in question and everything seems to be OK.

 

Thanks to all who replied! Good information to absorb from everyone, learned about and looked at different cameras and noted purposes.

 

Thanks