Connecting 32 IP Cameras to a new PC Based DVR

[briarwood 0]

Hello and thanks for this forum. It's a great resource.

 

I was hoping the board could help with an issue I've come across.

 

 

I've got an office building that has 16 IP cameras on a embedded DVR currently. I need to add a few PZT's outside and a few stationary cameras as well. I'm going to build a PC based DVR and use two Avermedia NV6480E's to run the cameras.

 

My question revolves around connecting the cameras to the PC DVR. What is the best option for connecting that many channels to a network? Are there routers/bridges with up to 32 ports or do I need to bridge multiple units together.

 

I can't seem to find a solution from the research I've done and Avermedia's tech support hasn't gotten back to me.

 

Thanks for any help you can offer, it's much appreciated.

[Soundy 1]

There are certainly high-capacity switches like that, though most max out at 24 ports. For network structure and location you may find it more convenient/efficient to use multiple smaller units (16 or 24-port) anyway - for example, if you have a large number of cameras at one end of the building, it may be easier to locate one switch near them, another near the DVR, and just use a single line to connect the two.

 

A couple considerations: you're talking about a pretty hefty amount of traffic here - it would be a good idea to make sure your DVR has a gigabit ethernet port, and at the very least, that your switch connecting to it has at least one gigabit port (or if using multiple switches, that they have at least gigabit uplink ports).

 

You certainly want to look at business/enterprise-level hardware, not basic little SOHO-grade stuff, if you want to avoid problems. Managed/QoS-capable units are a great idea, but probably overkill for this. Do keep the cameras all to their own network, rather than running them over the corporate LAN or anything.

 

Also, if your cameras support Power over Ethernet spec, look for switch(es) that can provide PoE, and you won't have to run separate power feeds to the cameras.

[briarwood 0]

Soundy,

 

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to use the Intel BOXD975XBX2KR motherboard which has 1000 Mbps LAN speed.

 

Excellent advice on the router/switches and using smaller multiple smaller units. The complex is enormous and stringing together a few smaller units would work well.

 

The main office has a Sonicwall router, I'm not there at the moment and I don't remember the model number so I'm not sure it has a 1000 Mbps LAN speed.

 

Can you recommend a good brand of router? Or at least one that you would trust for this application?

 

I also question powering so many camera's via ethernet, it seems like it would drain too much power from the routers/switches, especially for the PZT cameras.

 

Thanks again Soundy, I appreciate you taking the time to help.

[Soundy 1]

Excellent advice on the router/switches and using smaller multiple smaller units. The complex is enormous and stringing together a few smaller units would work well.

 

Remember too that ethernet is limited to 100m (300') wire runs, so long runs direct from distant cameras to the server area may be an issue. Running the cameras, say, 150' to a comms closet that's only 200' from the server bypasses that problem.

 

The main office has a Sonicwall router, I'm not there at the moment and I don't remember the model number so I'm not sure it has a 1000 Mbps LAN speed.

 

That shouldn't matter - as I say, you really want the camera traffic to have its own physically separate network, if possible. If the existing network uses managed switches, you're probably okay, but still, dedicated wiring for the CCTV network is preferable.

 

Can you recommend a good brand of router? Or at least one that you would trust for this application?

 

I like D-Link myself, they have some good business/enterprise-level stuff. Only reason you'd need a router, though, is if you do isolate your CCTV network from your corporate network, but still want to access it from the corporate network.

 

I also question powering so many camera's via ethernet, it seems like it would drain too much power from the routers/switches, especially for the PZT cameras.

 

PTZs may need their own power, yes, you'd have to check the specs on the cameras themselves for that... but PoE-enabled switches are designed to supply the necessary power to each port - power is not "robbed" from device operation. It's all part of the spec.

 

These switches, for example: http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=644 and http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=631

20 10/100 ports sufficient for cameras... four gigabit and two fiber ports for uplinking to another switch... up to 15W available on each port for PoE.

[briarwood 0]

Thanks again Soundy, another great reply.

 

The main office only consists of five computers right now, secretary and four offices are feeding off of the router. The PC based DVR will be added to that router so it will be six computers. The rest of the complex is filled with separate businesses that have their own dedicated networks.

 

So our IP cameras will feed into a switch somewhere at the halfway point (roughly 175' between switch and cameras) and from there the switch will feed into the router which is also feeding the five office computers and the PC DVR.

 

I like the 48 port switch the best, it gives room to grow (with another DVR card) and with only one switch setup is simpler.

 

The only issue is that the switches I've seen are around $1,400. More than I thought they would be.

 

For example the NETGEAR GS748TP at Newegg.

[Soundy 1]

The main office only consists of five computers right now, secretary and four offices are feeding off of the router. The PC based DVR will be added to that router so it will be six computers. The rest of the complex is filled with separate businesses that have their own dedicated networks.

 

Okay... just remember that a large number of cameras like that are potentially going to take a LOT of bandwidth, and that may affect your office network traffic.

 

One option here is to look for a managed, QoS capable switch, where you can control the bandwidth used on individual ports. Run all your office machines through it as well, so you can assign priority to their data (IF it turns out to be a problem).

 

Question: what resolution are these cameras? If they're fairly low-ref (4CIF or so) it won't be so bad... I'm used to dealing with IP cameras that start at 1.3MP up to 5MP, which obviously move a TON of data.

 

So our IP cameras will feed into a switch somewhere at the halfway point (roughly 175' between switch and cameras) and from there the switch will feed into the router which is also feeding the five office computers and the PC DVR.

 

Sounds alright.

 

I like the 48 port switch the best, it gives room to grow (with another DVR card) and with only one switch setup is simpler.

 

Hmmm, no DVR card should be required for IP cameras; those are for capturing analog video.

 

One switch may be simpler, but it's also more costly in the short term - if you only "need" 20 ports for now (for example), there's no point in getting a 48 - start with a 24, and add another later as the need grows.

 

That said...

 

The only issue is that the switches I've seen are around $1,400. More than I thought they would be.

 

For example the NETGEAR GS748TP at Newegg.

 

Well keep in mind, that one is gigabit on every port. The cameras are probably not gigabit-capable; even the 5MP IQEye cameras I've used are only 10/100. The gigabit is really only critical for the DVR connection, where you're "funneling" all the cameras into. Something to consider in your shopping...

[briarwood 0]

I'm using Axis 214's for the PZT cameras and Axis 211's for the stationary cameras. You're right, they are 4CIF camera's. We wanted to stay with quality cameras and we didn't want to go above a certain price point. The 214's are $1191 each and the 211's are $540 each. The outdoor housings add a few hundred each, even more for the 214.

 

I'm curious about the dedicated network for the cameras, how would that work? Would I need another IP address for it? We want to be able to access the PC from the office computers and from home.

 

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I was just about to spend $2,100 on two DVR cards. So I'm assuming then the control for the IP cameras would be all software based instead of hardware based as with BNC cameras?

 

Since I don't need the DVR cards do you have a recommendation for the software? Axis has it's own proprietary program but I'm not familiar with it.

 

Excellent point regarding the switch, I can always add another when the system is up and stable and we're ready to change the older system that's in place now.

 

You've been a TON of help to me. Thank you.

[Soundy 1]

I'm using Axis 214's for the PZT cameras and Axis 211's for the stationary cameras. You're right, they are 4CIF camera's. We wanted to stay with quality cameras and we didn't want to go above a certain price point. The 214's are $1191 each and the 211's are $540 each. The outdoor housings add a few hundred each, even more for the 214.

 

Wow... that's a bit steep for housings, I'd think - I've been putting IQEye 511s (1.3MP) outdoors in basic little Pelco EH3512 housings, they run barely $100 apiece... a little more for the versions with the glass heaters for cold locations.

 

I'm curious about the dedicated network for the cameras, how would that work? Would I need another IP address for it? We want to be able to access the PC from the office computers and from home.

 

Well if it was me... I'd give the CCTV setup a physically separate network (ie. not using and of the corporate network's wiring or hardware) with its own router and internet connection. Once the router is configured for outside access, home and work computers would access the system the same way.

 

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I was just about to spend $2,100 on two DVR cards. So I'm assuming then the control for the IP cameras would be all software based instead of hardware based as with BNC cameras?

 

All the PC-based DVRs I deal with will handle numerous different PTZ serial protocols from software as well, for analog cameras.

 

Axis' website doesn't say right off the top, but I would expect the 214s would use their network link for their PTZ control - it would make sense to not run a separate wire for it.

 

Since I don't need the DVR cards do you have a recommendation for the software? Axis has it's own proprietary program but I'm not familiar with it.

 

Well, what are you using as DVR software, to record the video? Does it support the Axis PTZ? VideoInsight's IP Server software says it supports the Axis PTZ protocol and Axis cameras (http://video-insight.com/Support/Supported-IP-Cameras.aspx)

 

Excellent point regarding the switch, I can always add another when the system is up and stable and we're ready to change the older system that's in place now.

 

One other thing, it appears the 214s don't support PoE, so you may want to save some money using a non-PoE switch for those. The 211s do have PoE, so you could use another switch for those with just enough ports for those cameras. Again, the other main consideration would be that whatever switches you use have at least a couple gigabit ports for connecting them together, and connecting the DVR. It may or may not be cheaper, you'll have to compare what pricing you can get, but from my experience, PoE support adds quite a bit to the price of a switch.. so if you could get away with, say, a 16-port PoE switch for the 211s and another 8 or 16-port for the rest, you may save a bit.

 

 

You've been a TON of help to me. Thank you.

[briarwood 0]

We took your advice and we're going with a dedicated network for the CCTV system. Once we really tossed the idea around it made the most sense. The added expense certainly seems worth it to ensure maximum bandwidth. We're looking into a device that keeps the IP address static. I think it's called myipbox but I'm not sure.

 

We also looked at the IQEye 511 and 711 and the Arecont 3130 and 8360 but the added expense is somewhat prohibitive at this point.

 

I'm curious what your thoughts are on a PoE switch and a good quality router for the new system. I'm looking at the Netgear GS724TP for the switch and I haven't found a router that I'm set on. The LINKSYS SGE2000P switch is an option as well but it's a few hundred more, 24 ports might be a little short so I'm debating on going with more ports for the PoE switch. The switch for the PTZ's can be 8 ports and easily fill the need. That is if we don't just connect the ones less than 100 meters from the router directly to the router.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

I talked to the rep. at Axis today and questioned him about the 25 camera limit on the software and his response was that they're releasing a 50 camera version sometime in the first quarter of 08. Not sure whether or not to trust him or if it was just a sales pitch.

 

Thanks again Soundy, you've been a ton of help and I really appreciate it.