IP Cameras at a Glance

[MoneyMike 0]

hi i have been looking for an ideal ip soultion for our clients. we currently run with dvtel architecture which seems to be pretty good.

 

Im looking for the best possible options for ip cameras i have looked a few but unsure at their stand in the industry.

such as Arecont, Axis, Avigilon

 

The solution i am looking for is a great migapixel camera over 3meg at full frame (closest 30fps) at good flexiable compression. i have seen that Mpeg4 seems to be the go in the standards.

 

suggestions on the best gear to use at a very high level will be very much appreciated.

[user1 0]

I still am an Axis guy..simply because from a support standpoint I trust the cameras to work and if there is a problem it's a 3-year warranty. I also use mjpeg still as the quality is a little better and hard drive space is so cheap. We could probably do something together if you need some assistance.

[ultrahighres 0]

Hi Mike

 

What is the application? This may be a CMOS vs CCD question. Is there much movement in what you are looking at and what is the lighting like?

[CollinR 0]

Hi Mike

 

What is the application? This may be a CMOS vs CCD question. Is there much movement in what you are looking at and what is the lighting like?

 

 

Yup you pick your cameras by application not by brand name. No single brand has a camera for every application. Most of the time for difficult stuff analog is the way to go.

[user1 0]

Unless you are budget-tight, don't go analog. Invest wisely in technology and move forward instead of backward. I have not seen an analog camera do anything an IP camera can't do better.

 

I believe Axis has a camera for almost any application.

[floordog 0]

It depends on what you are looking for. I like the IQ 753 over the Arecont 3100M, but I have to tell you I prefer he 2100M do to other reasons. The IQ753's have some squirrely software/firmware. The manual for the 753 is over 180 pages. What does that tell you. It is almost three times the cost of the AR 2100M! Simply make a small modification to the 2100M and use two ip MP cameras and get the equivalent of 4.2 MP camera with two POV's compared to only one POV with 3 megapixels---FOR ALMOST THE SAME PRICE!

 

The Modification of the AR2100M is simple. Remove the IR filter, there is a little trick to it (easy and simple) replace with another 2mm by 15x15 dichroic filter with the specs as follows. (450-750nm) visible transmission and (840-920nm) NIR transmission. Now the visible bandpass looks like the ACTIVE filter network function called the Chebyshev pattern (function). This has steep sides at the LP and HP sides of the curve an dis relatively flat at the top. The NIR curve looks like a typical 40db/octave notch filter, only its a pass band for NIR. This can be done for less then $40. So you have TWO MP cameras with higher data colection at both VIS and NIR, and for less money! I would use a megarecorder for the recording functions embedded woth LuxRiot software. For NIR I would use my own LED ARRAYS or if you want to buy one try the BlackDiamond or DERWENT UF500. You can build them for 1/5th the cost, but its up to you.

 

BTW the IQ753 does not have autoiris. You can get the AI version of the 2100M for an extra $50. Also, I would use XAVEE MP lenses for inside or short -medium distance ourtoors or maybe the SENKO IR DC-AUTO lenses for outddors at long range. These are good lenses for the money.

[rory 0]

Unless you are budget-tight, don't go analog. Invest wisely in technology and move forward instead of backward. I have not seen an analog camera do anything an IP camera can't do better.

 

I believe Axis has a camera for almost any application.

 

I would like to see a decent True Day Night IP camera with Exview low light capabilities in both color and BW mode. (that retails for under $800)

 

Next a dual IP camera with built in IR out to 200+ feet and separate color and BW cameras. (that retails for under $2000)

 

Next lets see a budget Color IP camera for $50.

 

Wall Mount Vandal Proof IP Camera such as the GE brute camera.

 

Lastly, an IP camera that can plug directly into the Composite Input on any standard TV, in other words has to have a BNC or RCA output (composite)

 

Last I checked, Axis was not really considered a professional camera company, mostly DIY products. Definitely not the best choice for most Surveillance applications though. I would agree they have gotten better recently, but IMO not ready yet - to each their own though.

 

On the other hand I have seen some IP camera companies that are getting there, but still have a way to go. Things will only get better though. They need to start moving away from relying on Web Browsers though for starters.

 

And nope, Axis doesn't have a camera for every application, NO manufacturer does

 

As to budgets, most clients these days are on strict budgets with falling economies, so if one wants to stay in the Video Surveillance industry, they will really need to offer budget applications as well.

[user1 0]

Actually, IP cameras and Axis are now considered more professional than your analog systems (not among dvr lovers). Why do you think casinos, airports, colleges and the like are all putting them in? Also tire stores, offices, government, etc. If you're going to make an investment, choose the right solution or end up replacing it in 3 years.

 

I don't want an RCA output or connection to a tacky monitor.

 

If you want a budget color camera for $50, I agree..buy an analog camera. You're comparing apples to oranges. I don't suspect a convenience store is going to want to spend for more advanced products, but if anyone has watched the videos on the news you'd know maybe they should!

[rory 0]

IP cameras and Axis are now considered more professional than your analog systems

Actually not, most IP systems being installed are being done by beginners in the CCTV industry.

 

Why do you think casinos, airports, colleges and the like are all putting them in?

Many just jump into the Video Surveillance Industry without knowing anything about it, they pick the first thing they see.

 

choose the right solution or end up replacing it in 3 years.

Current IP cameras will be obsolete in 3 years time.

 

I don't want an RCA output or connection to a tacky monitor.

Ahh you dont, but most clients want it, they want to see the video on their TVs. Thats about 95% of the jobs right there.

 

I don't suspect a convenience store is going to want to spend for more advanced products, but if anyone has watched the videos on the news you'd know maybe they should!

They wont spend it on a decent digital CCTV camera (forget the whole analog myth the IP people try to sell you), then ofcourse they wont spend it on an IP camera.

 

Everyone knows Axis is the Radio Shack of IP cameras .. Im not saying they arent any good, just saying thats the image they have always presented, something of a more advanced webcam product line.

[ak357 0]

Everyone knows Axis is the Radio Shack of IP cameras .. Im not saying they arent any good, just saying thats the image they have always presented, something of a more advanced webcam product line.

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I dont get it Rory !

 

How do u or can u compare regular DVR res of 640x480 or 720x 480

(that is max what U can get)

 

to 1.3 megapixel or better ?

[user1 0]

AK37,

 

The die-hard cctv guys won't move to advanced technologies because they don't want to learn something new. Pretty much every statement was false from Rory.

 

Most IP Surveiilance folks aren't beginners in the CCTV industry....they are not a part of the CCTV industry. I never will be considered part of the CCTV industry and will be insulted if categorized in that regard.

 

I have IP Cams in place for 5 years, so I'm not sure about the 'obsolete in 3 years' part.

 

Most of YOUR clients want a monitor, that's no the norm any longer....not nearly as many people want to sit in one chair and watch the monitor.

 

You're not real familiar with IP if you think Axis is the Radio Shack....what's the cheapest camera they sell, a 207 for $250?

 

This is the section for advanced technologies, there are plenty of other areas to pander to CCTV users.

[ak357 0]

AK37,

 

The die-hard cctv guys won't move to advanced technologies because they don't want to learn something new. Pretty much every statement was false from Rory.

 

Most IP Surveiilance folks aren't beginners in the CCTV industry....they are not a part of the CCTV industry. I never will be considered part of the CCTV industry and will be insulted if categorized in that regard.

 

I have IP Cams in place for 5 years, so I'm not sure about the 'obsolete in 3 years' part.

 

Most of YOUR clients want a monitor, that's no the norm any longer....not nearly as many people want to sit in one chair and watch the monitor.

 

You're not real familiar with IP if you think Axis is the Radio Shack....what's the cheapest camera they sell, a 207 for $250?

 

This is the section for advanced technologies, there are plenty of other areas to pander to CCTV users.

 

I kinda agree with you

 

Any CCTV Cam which we all see all over the places

give final pix what I call "Lots of nothing"

unless u put object 5-10 feet away even this depend what lenses do u use

[scorpion 0]

It has been slowly going down hill lately starting about a year ago. I use do to do 15 - 20 installs a month in just CCTV alone, and now anyone can google "cheap 4 channel DVR" and up pops on the screen is what should be dealer cost, and yet they are selling to the public direct. I can assume that there are alot of "speculators/investors" out there buying cheap, and selling high direct form asia. I fear that the market will end up being oversaturated with products. I wonder how long before I see DVRs at Wally World. I will cry if I am getting gas at a convenience store, and at the check out counter I see DVRs for sale next to the DVD movies, and energy pills! YIKES! The investors do not care about CCTV, or whether I live, and die by this business. Once the market goes bust then they just move on to something else to make their money on.

 

I do like that the average joe is becoming aware of CCTV, and there will be a day where every house will have a system. I see a future in new installs, upgrades, and service contracts.

 

As to having an analog monitor:

 

Entry level price / Entry level design:

 

I think this market is going to depend on CRT monitors until there is no longer a market left for CRT, and LCD can overtake the CRT view for view.

Any daycare, home nursing care, residential surveillance, bar, nightclub for the most part do want to see it on a CRT. Some of it is due to economical, some of it is due to lack of education. Why would a bar want to invest in computers at every point that they want to view the cameras. I consider it a good day when I walk in, for a site survey, and they actually have an internet connection!

 

Corporate installs / Security is of the essence installation:

 

I believe this market would be wasting it time, and money installing CRT monitors. I think it becomes a dual backbone system of viewing. You have all of these computers sitting about, and you want to go out, and buy 2, 3, or more monitors to view a surveillance system? Using on hand computers would be so much more efficient, and cost effective.

 

On the arguement point I think it is more of a matter of perspective then technology, or economics.

 

My perspective is entry level residential market. The last thing I want is to mix CCTV with entry level computer that is used by the teenagers who are loading every P2P, free game download, and free music download, and then have them click the yellow bar where it say "would you like to enhance your web browsing experience"?

 

I can only look down, and shake my head when people want to do this kind of system.

 

When I am working for a client that has a server room, and in house IT staff, no matter how small the company may be, they get it about protecting themselves, the desk top, and the server/servers, and there is no fear mixing CCTV with computers. Now you just have to smooth out the feathers of the freaked out IT guy who thinks you are going to suck every bandwith out of his precious "baby", and you are now the "new enemy".

 

As to CCTV guys who choose to stay analog, or to move towards the future of technological advances: that is a hard one to argue about.

 

No one seems to care about all of the elevator operators who's job it was to stand in an elevator, and pressing a lever in one direction for up, and the other direction for down. What seperated the "MEN", from the "boys" was that one could release the lever on "cue" to have the elevator level to the floor at the get off point.

 

I remember in the late 80's where professional photographers were up in arms as SLR cameras were being introduced with built in computers to take the "perfect shot". They thought is was the end of the world to their careers. Who would need a professional photographer now?

 

I look at most people's pictures, and they still look like crap no matter how many pixals, and how fast the computer chip, or how much fuzzy logic they build in to a camera. Now you do not have to manually screw up your shot with to many settings, and Fstops , and buttons ect.

 

No one seems to care about the guy who used to carry "THE KEY", at the gas stations who would go around and reset the gas pumps back to zero so that you could pump your gas, and you would always get stuck with the guy who was a "chatter box", and would not end a dumb conversation with the client whose gas tank was full, oil was checked, and the windshield was squeeged clean. Where are they now?

 

The developers who failed to adopt to automated elevators did not stop building skyscrapers, and gas stations did not fold if they failed to adapt to the newer pumps.

 

Maybe composite video will be replaced by RGB, (or HDMI, or DVI), but I for see analog to be around for some time to come.

 

On the other hand those video surveillance shops that fail to understand, or to learn the basics of the IP, or those that fail to create some kind of partnership of those in the know of IP will close up, and go away.

 

Future system will finally become linkable with plug, and play alarm system, CCTV system, time and attendance, and electronic access.

 

Rory is not demanding an expensive IP camera to be sold at $50.00.

 

I would want to see an entry level IP camera to be sold at $50.00 so that there is a glut of IP cameras on the market which will spur the transition from analog to digital.

 

I look at the cable company. The have one cable coming down from a telephone pole, (or up from the ground from a burial system), and they have analog signals, digital signals, HD signals, IP signals, and telephone, and in some cases multiline telephone, plus the cable boxes are talking back, and forth to their systems.

 

Based on this, it makes me wonder what could a digital camera do if it could send multiple pieces of information to a "DVR" of the future, and the DVR could talk back to the camera! I would love to see a vari focal camera that sits in wide angle mode until it detects "something" that makes it telephoto in for more information, or for a facial shot, and I do not mean after the fact like you would do with megapixal cameras today when you need the "detail".

 

I would be the first to say that most IP surveillance people are beginners in the CCTV field.

 

I would be the first to say that most CCTV people are beginners in the IP field.

 

It is amazing how an IT tech can screw up such a simple CCTV installation, and then there is the CCTV tech who does not even know how to do in IPCONFIG, or to reset a modem, or a router, or does not even know what 192.168.1.1 means!!

 

CCTV is afraid that the IT's are going to take their jobs away, and the IT's think that they can just pound a drywall screw in to a wall with a tack hammer, and the install is done.

 

What we really need to do is to teach each other our craft, and enlarge both of our markets, and get rich, and retire at a young age, and.. OH I am rambling again! Right Rory? LOL!

[Michelangelo 0]

I agree with most of what Rory sais. IP is really overrated when it comes to many CCTV solutions. In good lighting, indoors and a customer with a big wallet I would go for IP but otherwise not. I have met alarm installers who proudly say that they only do IP systems. In that way Rory is right, IP is popular among newbies.

[rory 0]

Everyone knows Axis is the Radio Shack of IP cameras .. Im not saying they arent any good, just saying thats the image they have always presented, something of a more advanced webcam product line.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I dont get it Rory !

 

How do u or can u compare regular DVR res of 640x480 or 720x 480

(that is max what U can get)

 

to 1.3 megapixel or better ?

 

I was not comparing that.

 

With CCTV everyone knows what the $50 camera is, its the budget camera for the market, we could say Mace or COP is known for their $50 cameras .. they are the budget players in the industry .. budget means DIY.

 

So essentially I was saying Axis is the $50 camera for IP.

Nothing wrong with that really if you know the industry, those $50 cameras sell like mad and make the installer tons of money.

Edited December 28, 2007 by Guest

[rory 0]

AK37,

 

The die-hard cctv guys won't move to advanced technologies because they don't want to learn something new. Pretty much every statement was false from Rory.

 

Most IP Surveiilance folks aren't beginners in the CCTV industry....they are not a part of the CCTV industry. I never will be considered part of the CCTV industry and will be insulted if categorized in that regard.

 

I have IP Cams in place for 5 years, so I'm not sure about the 'obsolete in 3 years' part.

 

Most of YOUR clients want a monitor, that's no the norm any longer....not nearly as many people want to sit in one chair and watch the monitor.

 

You're not real familiar with IP if you think Axis is the Radio Shack....what's the cheapest camera they sell, a 207 for $250?

 

This is the section for advanced technologies, there are plenty of other areas to pander to CCTV users.

 

I write IP based software, so Im way ahead of you there buddy.

As for web browser based apps, thats already outdated.

 

Now I would like you to break down each statement that I made 1 line at a time and show us where it is false. Otherwise your idea that my statements are false is just heresay.

 

There are also other threads where this has been discussed over and over, so you can do a search if you like.

 

This is a CCTV forum, so CCTV will always take presidence over everything else.

[rory 0]

Any CCTV Cam which we all see all over the places

give final pix what I call "Lots of nothing"

unless u put object 5-10 feet away even this depend what lenses do u use

 

Once again, it would truly be nice if everyone could afford a decent $2000 IP Camera .. but life is not that good.

[user1 0]

The reason I'm in the business I'm in is because there was no decent CCTV solution to do what I was looking for.

 

That being said, I'm not saying they won't continue to buy and install dvr's. But consumers are becoming educated and that dictates the market. The primary reason dvr's are still installed a lot is because those are the folks in the loop...whether word of mouth, yellow pages or whatever. Look in the yellow pages and you won't find anyone doing IP cameras.

 

I've had 3 dvr guys call in the past three weeks requesting to meet. Two of them had lost bids out to me (and the end user compared them demo-to-demo over the net).

 

Sorry Rory, I didn't see any advanced products on your site. I'm always looking for good web-based products, point me to some if you would (not software with admin consoles with web viewing). I can just report what I see which is that I've never lost a bid or job going against analog cams with dvr's. I also don't think it's because I'm such a good salesman. I tend to credit the customer for having some insight.

 

However, I can't argue with you as you're smarter than the rest of us if you're sitting in Nassau!

[rory 0]

not software with admin consoles with web viewing

 

Explain please.

And note, Im not trying to sell anything to you though.

[rory 0]

Sorry Rory, I didn't see any advanced products on your site. I'm always looking for good web-based products, point me to some if you would

 

And you find Axis cameras "that" advanced?

 

Im not a fan of Axis for professional jobs is all. There are other IP cams I would use first, and there are some DIY jobs I would use Axis on also. Like i said before, to each their own. Im writing software for Axis cameras now also, as like Geo, they are big players in their industry .. lots of DIY use them so big business ya see

 

Now, I already mentioned what I would like to see in an IP camera .. Im still looking for that BTW. .. one day

[MoneyMike 0]

Hi everyone, I have been away for a while. I see i have opened a Controversial topic.

 

I agree we have to pic our cameras by application and cost, at the present time we are still supply anlouge cameras to dvrs or digital encoders such as dvtel. for the old spot monitor we usually use an ip decoder and bung them into a switch or quad, expensive but flexable.

 

This particular installation will need to view a comerical yard with high trafic areas. We have used the Arecont range before due to the dvtel interface. what something day night high frames.

 

I guess some of the questions i want to cover in this thread are:

mega pixel what is prefered as the best in image sensor cmos vs ccd?

 

The Arecont range uses cmos with a jpeg format i would have thought the jpeg would be undesirable compared to mpeg4, what would there benefits be jpeg vs meg4? or any higher format.

 

i am a newbe to the ip range but im not worried at all, the technolgy provides functionality which i love intergration between different service intercoms and alarms an access control.

you wouldn't find the average corner store spending heaps of dough on ip cameras but when ip comes competive to an analogue price the will change there mind quickly.

 

I have seen avermedia produce a hybrid dvr, does anyone have any input on hybrid systems?

 

Guys n Gals don't taken it the wrong way but i would like to keep this thread more technical than by products, some comparisons will be good but no preaching.

 

cheers everyone

[user1 0]

I would like to see a solution where I have 10 cameras at 4 sites with no storage hardware on-site, only cameras. Server, dvr, pc card or whatever is at a 5th site and all management is from a 6th site strictly via a browser...........no remote desktop or pcAnywhere (is it still around?).

 

Here's some Axis sites for the folks to see and judge for themselves: http://www.axis.com/solutions/video/gallery.htm

 

Or just search for 'axis 211 version' and should have a lot of IP cameras available.

[rory 0]

I would like to see a solution where I have 10 cameras at 4 sites with no storage hardware on-site, only cameras.

 

And when the Internet goes down ...?

Edited December 28, 2007 by Guest

[rory 0]

Hi everyone, I have been away for a while. I see i have opened a Controversial topic.

 

I agree we have to pic our cameras by application and cost, at the present time we are still supply anlouge cameras to dvrs or digital encoders such as dvtel. for the old spot monitor we usually use an ip decoder and bung them into a switch or quad, expensive but flexable.

 

This particular installation will need to view a comerical yard with high trafic areas. We have used the Arecont range before due to the dvtel interface. what something day night high frames.

 

I guess some of the questions i want to cover in this thread are:

mega pixel what is prefered as the best in image sensor cmos vs ccd?

 

The Arecont range uses cmos with a jpeg format i would have thought the jpeg would be undesirable compared to mpeg4, what would there benefits be jpeg vs meg4? or any higher format.

 

i am a newbe to the ip range but im not worried at all, the technolgy provides functionality which i love intergration between different service intercoms and alarms an access control.

you wouldn't find the average corner store spending heaps of dough on ip cameras but when ip comes competive to an analogue price the will change there mind quickly.

 

I have seen avermedia produce a hybrid dvr, does anyone have any input on hybrid systems?

 

Guys n Gals don't taken it the wrong way but i would like to keep this thread more technical than by products, some comparisons will be good but no preaching.

 

cheers everyone

 

CCD over CMOS, and check out Video Insight, Avermedia, NUUO, and GeoVision, for Hybrid DVRs.

[MoneyMike 0]

I would like to see a solution where I have 10 cameras at 4 sites with no storage hardware on-site, only cameras.

 

And when the Internet goes down ...?

 

Thats true, you would probably achive the task but may have to setup a redundancy. depending on the cost you could place an archiver on the each site configured through some sort of active dirctory domain clone.

 

any ideas? im not an it tech but love to work out logic and worst case Scenarios.