IP Cameras at a Glance

[MoneyMike 0]

cheers rory

[rory 0]

I would like to see a solution where I have 10 cameras at 4 sites with no storage hardware on-site, only cameras.

 

And when the Internet goes down ...?

 

Thats true, you would probably achive the task but may have to setup a redundancy. depending on the cost you could place an archiver on the each site configured through some sort of active dirctory domain clone.

 

any ideas? im not an it tech but love to work out logic and worst case Scenarios.

 

Could setup Telco as a backup .. or RF. But will have to be much smaller images being sent, probably no video either.

[user1 0]

Internet uptime is 99%, more likely to lose a UPS or dvr in most scenarios.

 

Any product answers without changing questions?

[rory 0]

Internet uptime is 99%, more likely to lose a UPS or dvr in most scenarios.

 

Any product answers without changing questions?

 

Plenty answers, see above.

With Power, you have Battery backup, then Generator. 100% Uptime.

Most clients wont want to rely on their ISP for their security system uptime though.

[MoneyMike 0]

not a big fan of telco and RF links very narrow bandwidth paths, some sort of store and forward path would be they way to go. i thought pelco had something like that in the endura system, when it loses the server. havent done any work with the endura thou.

[rory 0]

I used telco back in the day, slow video .. remember the news media ..

Actually my telco is down again, 3rd time since I got it .. so really cant recommend it that much anymore .. my internet has been down plenty too but least it only takes them a couple days to fix that .. telco takes me 2 weeks or more!

 

If its not too far from the main site, could do wireless, that is where IP video really shines.

 

Or like user1 you could just hope the ISP is always up.

[user1 0]

Still no application solutions? Come on, there are lots of experts out there.

 

To help direct, I have 100% uptime so is no issue.

[MoneyMike 0]

I used telco back in the day, slow video .. remember the news media ..

Actually my telco is down again, 3rd time since I got it .. so really cant recommend it that much anymore .. my internet has been down plenty too but least it only takes them a couple days to fix that .. telco takes me 2 weeks or more!

 

If its not too far from the main site, could do wireless, that is where IP video really shines.

 

Or like user1 you could just hope the ISP is always up.

 

i havent tried telco before, i reckon it would be painfull at times. ip really shines when it comes to off site monitoring, would you use multicast stream or unicast for RF link? if you had the money a fiber link would fix everthing but way to expensive to lease it off the telco

[woodyads 0]

Guys IP doesn't mean Internet. IP is internet protocol. The Internet is the IP based public connectivity between users. Don't have to use the public access ("The Internet").

 

If you have two sites with local area networks you can lease lines from your Telco, that can be IP based or encapsulate IP. For instance ATM lines or ISDN are not IP but you can send IP over them, just like 2.4GHz RF isn't IP but you can send IP over it. You can direct connect your two sites without going though the internet. You can also Dig a trench and lay fibre or use microwave, Wireless bridges, Satellite or Laser. Or run all or any of them.

 

You can also go to an internet service provider and ask for redundant connectivity. So they will have two separate sites which you can use for connectivity. Being IP it will work out the cheapest (quickest route) cause that's what IP is designed to do. And you have instant redundancy.

 

Or in my case I use both leased lines and public internet using a VPN. I connect out via Sydney and Singapore (4000km) and in via Kalgoorlie and Perth (600km) We use direct ISDN leased lines to Perth (1100km) and public lines to Leinster (100km)

 

The ISDN are on a "A" class service which I break out to 10 "B" class lines on a JTEC (private B MUX). I send Video conferencing direct over the ISDN lines, also utilise other lines to send IP services when required. Another company on site uses ATM. I have a firewall and a PIX between the two networks and if required I can reroute our traffic though their lease ATM line.

 

IP has so many options. So much infrastructure is in place most of us just don't know its there.

Edited January 1, 2008 by Guest

[rory 0]

So much infrustructure is in place most of us just don't know its there.

 

Thats another problem, its only in place in some places.

[woodyads 0]

And coax is everywhere right?

 

Got to agree with Rory on one thing, Web is lame. You only use Web (HTTP) client if you don't want to distribute client software. And even then a proper IP / CCTV based web solultion will need to accept multicast traffic which can't be on port 80 or 8080. So the majority of the solution is not web at all. The other question is why do you want a security application that the rest of the world have the client to. While they still can't get past the security the know its there and what it does.

 

PS.

IP based CCTV is an oxymoron. Once it is on IP it is no longer closed curcuit.

[rory 0]

Coax, well Cable TV has the rights to that here (they are the local Cable TV Monopoly), gotta pay them big to lease that .. . . and then the nodes go down alot due to power outages, and their UPS's never seem to work

 

One of my biggest issues with the browser based (only) apps is the incompatibilities and security issues surrounding browsers and their plugins. And if it is ActiveX, you need to download something, so might as be a real software app. I can see where javascript image push is great for basic remote viewing but to do any kind of real work you should use an actual software application.

[woodyads 0]

Come to think of it I have IP running over coax here too

[rory 0]

Come to think of it I have IP running over coax here too

 

Oldschool hey?

[woodyads 0]

Yeh the other problem with Java is there is a standard, but no-one know what it is. We run over 200 applications on site and Java apps will constantly knock each other over if change management it left to the developers. .net should fix all that.

[woodyads 0]

Come to think of it I have IP running over coax here too

 

Oldschool hey?

 

Yeh I was looking for some photo's I had. I had an Ericsson Minilink (kind of microwave) which ran IP over coax. Fried it too many times in lightning strikes till there were no spare parts left world wide. It did 8mb/s. Ran a PABX and IP over it. Killer stuff.

 

I also had a Fibre to coax media converter to E1/T1 (ISDN). Real pain cause I had was running ISDN over Cat 5 at both ends. But you cann't get Cat 5 to Fibre media converters to support ISDN. Took ages to find these and to work out the balun to convert the Cat5 to coax. A lot of stuffing around cause the boss wanted video conferencing.

 

We get lots of lightning up here so I went to a lot of effort to run every protocol to fibre.

[securitysys 0]

I agree with Rory on this one.

 

I have installed both IP Cameras and traditional Analog Systems and both have their place.

 

For the analog side of things there are many pluses:

 

1. Pricing

2. Matrix / Console Setups

3. Many more manufactures, equipment to choose from

 

IP Cameras

 

1. Image Quality

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I think there are many times when an IP System would be a better choice for a installation then an analog system (that's why we install them), but I still think the majority of customers out there today that are looking to purchase a video surveillance system does not need an IP System.

 

Just for example, we recently set up a chain of Jewelry Stores. Instead of going with 9 IP Cameras, they decided to go with 25 Analog Cameras, they got the same coverage and almost the same quality they would of got with IP, and we saved them at the very minimum 65% over what they would of paid for our (or any one else’s) comparable IP Solution. We even ran Video & Power over Cat5E by using video baluns. The only advantage of going with an IP Camera systems here is they would of got more details on the actual Jewelry Piece it self when zoomed in after the fact, but, since they are able to see the piece it self, and they all ready know which piece is stolen, it didn’t make a difference to the client.

 

Remember, just because a camera has 25X the resolution of an analog camera doesn't mean it can replace 25 cameras. How about when you have 5 ft. between the show cases and the wall and you have to cover a 40 ft. depth. Your going to need multiple cameras.

 

We do utilize hybrid systems when clients need to capture License Plates, but most of our clients don't require it, as usually when they get broken into it's done with a stolen vehicle.

 

Now, as for IP Systems, we recently did an IP Camera setup for a Parking Lot. Instead of going with 6 or more analog cameras, we where able to cover the entire parking lot with just 2. One Camera covered the entrance (which captured all the license plates), and the 2nd covered the entire lot. We added a GE CamPLUS Rugged IP Dome on the inside, coupled with a PC and Luxriot software and the job was done. For the outside, we used 1 Arecont 2100 and 1 Arecont 3130.

 

Right now, our installations are about 85-15 Analog to IP, and I think that it will stay like that until there are more solutions out there, better pricing, and a true need arises for the average customer to switch from analog to IP.

[501 0]

Internet uptime is 99%, more likely to lose a UPS or dvr in most scenarios.

 

Any product answers without changing questions?

 

The problem with having EVERYTHING internet based is a very smart theif could just cut your cable or telephone lines (providing your internet), and poof, no cameras recording. The main server may notify someone but by then it might be too late.

 

Also, you still have routers, switches and cameras that could go down too.

[ultrahighres 0]

Megapixel CCD every time

 

Assuming the CMOS and CCD are both using a global shutter CCD sensors will generally be more sensitive, have less noise, and a larger dynamic range

 

Oh and a lossless compression

 

But if you want quality like that you must have customers who are prepared to pay for it. There are plenty but you have to dig for them!!

[normicgander 0]

Oh and a lossless compression

 

Hmm..Is there such a thing in video which makes applying compression realistic or worthwhile in the first place?

[ncdoc 0]

I recently priced out our first IP system for around 128 cameras. Our traditional setup has been analog cams connected to DVRs and a Matrix.

 

In this application we needed to transmit several cameras from multiple buildings back to a head end. A fiber backbone is available to us so our traditional route would be multichannel fiber XMTRs/RCVRs. As you know this can get costly so I compared the cost of using Cisco switches to create a standalone Gigabit network and then transmitting all cameras to the head end via video servers (encoders). (note most systems cannot yet take advantage of the Gigabit speed) The IP route came out cheaper and we do not need as many fiber strands. Also by using server based recording and external storage we do not have to deal with the issue of sending a DVR unit back for repair when the HD fails. Just Hot Swap.

 

We are testing several IP software packages including Genetec, ONSSI, Verint, and Nice. For the locations where analog monitors and keyboards are still desired you can use a network decoder with any analog monitor and Pelco KBD300 to provide the feel of a traditional matrix.

 

With that said when I plug a high res analog cam into a good CRT monitor I always know what I am going to get. That is not always the case with IP. Granted I have not yet tested the Megapixel. Regards,

[rory 0]

Also by using server based recording and external storage we do not have to deal with the issue of sending a DVR unit back for repair when the HD fails. Just Hot Swap.

 

With most DVRs these days you can just swap the HDD yourself (granted some stand alone DVRs still dont make it easy, but all PC DVRs allow that). If you image the main DVR partition that can be re imaged in under 5 minutes. If you have RAID then hot swap but still if one drive goes half the time others have gone also due to brown outs or what not (voltage regulator and good cooling prevents most if not all HDD failures).

[ncdoc 0]

Also by using server based recording and external storage we do not have to deal with the issue of sending a DVR unit back for repair when the HD fails. Just Hot Swap.

 

With most DVRs these days you can just swap the HDD yourself (granted some stand alone DVRs still dont make it easy, but all PC DVRs allow that). If you image the main DVR partition that can be re imaged in under 5 minutes. If you have RAID then hot swap but still if one drive goes half the time others have gone also due to brown outs or what not (voltage regulator and good cooling prevents most if not all HDD failures).

 

I completely agree Rory and I failed to mention I was comparing to embedded units we have used in the past without hot swap drives. I should also mention that we have discount pricing with HP, Dell, and Cisco so that makes utilizing a server based IP system a bit more attractive. While we will continue to use analog system on smaller projects I get the impression from the industry that large companies like Bosch, AD, Vicon, Panasonic, etc. are focusing their R&D on IP. I do not expect to see much future innovation with Matrix, Muxes, etc. so I wonder how long this technology will last. Did anyone notice as of the Jan 2nd Pelco is pushing the Integral Technologies line on their front page. Never thought I would see that either.

[securitysys 0]

While we will continue to use analog system on smaller projects I get the impression from the industry that large companies like Bosch, AD, Vicon, Panasonic, etc. are focusing their R&D on IP. I do not expect to see much future innovation with Matrix, Muxes, etc. so I wonder how long this technology will last. Did anyone notice as of the Jan 2nd Pelco is pushing the Integral Technologies line on their front page. Never thought I would see that either.

 

I'm not holding my breath. We have a long ways to go my friend. Too many exisiting clients with analog systems, to many dealers not trained on IP yet, not enough product variety, and not enough demand.

 

I show megapixel cameras to alot of my clients side by side with analog cameras, and about 75% of them say the picture on that megapixel camera is excellent, but I don't really need it.

 

When we can pick up a decent IP camera wholesale for $199 or even $249 and IP has come up with a solution for most applications that analog is currently used in, then you will see a lot more IP being sold. But even then, your still going to have millions of exisiting analog customers out there that are going to want to expand / work on their exisiting systems.

[long520 0]

reason is not enough demand. another reason is people is familiar the analog systems. finally price is people need to consider