Help me select/place a camera on my house.

[charlez 0]

I am looking into getting a cctv setup for my house. The reason is that in the last couple years, there have been some thefts from / damage to vehicles. It's really nothing major, just an annoyance. The last event was a few weeks ago when someone hit/run my truck parked on the street, causing about $2500 in damage.

 

I guess my question is, can i do a system that will accomplish my goals for the price I am willing to spend. I have picked out a DVR that will record in MPEG4 at 720x480 that i think will suit my needs. I'm not really sure how much I want to spend on cameras or how many to get. ($200-$300 each??)

 

See attached picture:

I would like to cover the cars in the driveway and one parked on the street (right side of 2nd pic, blue box in 1st). The area is somewhat lit, (street light across street). The picture I took is a little deceptive, it was a 4 second exposure. I was hoping to be able to ID liscence plates of vehicles driving away on the street but after a bunch of reading on this forum, it doesn't look like that is possible anywhere near my price range. For reference, the driveway is 37ft from the garage door to the curb. The house is 50ft wide,

 

I have seen alot of cheap / crappy quality videos and If that's all I can get for my budget, then I don't think I'd even bother with it at all.

Are there any cameras that are close to my dilusional criteria?

If not, what price am I looking at to acheive my goals?

[scorpion 0]

You could build a mailbox that works as a traditional mailbox, and it can have one camera inside of it on the backside that faces up the street, and another one that face down the street. Now you do not have to spend as much money on cameras. You just need to get the cameras close to the "subject". You will have to trench, and conduit (use the kind used in sprinkler systems rather than 10 foot sections that have to be glued with fittings. The sprinkler style does not have any "breaks" every ten feet, and you do not have to worry about water intrusion). You will want to use burial RG 59 siamese inside the conduit.

 

On the house I would use three cameras if not more. I would have two wide angle cameras to cover the whole front of the house, and one telephoto for facial recognition, and the two in the mailbox for up, and down views. I would use 6mm bullets inside the mailbox to avoid distance distortion that you would get with wide angle cameras.

 

You can use cameras on the sides, and backyard now, or you can add them on later.

 

I would recommend a camera that has a 4mm to 50mm vari focal lens to watch the car in the street.

 

All of your cameras should be vari focal if you bump up your budget a little. Vari focal will make your system more flexable. An unexpected situation will come up sometime in the near future. Vari Focal will allow your system to "adapt" to the new situation, and when that "threat" is over you can put your system back to the way it was.

 

 

I would recommend an 8 channel DVR. You may not use all of the channels for now, but it is great to have that add on capablility!

 

Perhaps a megapixal camera would be better to watch the front of the house. This will allow you to get better detail without as many cameras.

 

Do not let crappy video throw you in to defeat! Better to have some video, rather than no video. You would be surprised at what goes on around your house when you are not at home. Ask Scruit from the forum. He has video of a mailman pissing in his bushes! Busted Caught on "tape", and the sound of the "tinkeling" adds more to the evidence!!

 

What do you think?

Edited January 1, 2008 by Guest

[Kiwi 0]

Big kudos for documenting the situation so well - really beats the one-line questions often posted!

 

I agree, the mailbox is a great location for a couple of cameras. You could use small monochrome board cameras that will really only work at night but are significantly easier to hide and weatherproof, to say nothing of cheaper.

 

A pair of cameras with 3.6mm lenses under the front overhang of the mailbox will give you about 160 degrees total view into the street.

 

It would be even better to get cameras under the streetlight across the road if possible.

 

You might want another camera or two with longer focal length pointing down the street each way to try and ID a license plate or at least a general shape of the vehicle.

 

For wiring I would use CAT5. With video baluns, each CAT5 run will have enough wires for two cameras.

 

With the street lighting at night the DVR's motion detection may not work so well, so plan on recording continuously.

[scorpion 0]

Make sure you purchase cameras that have distances of more than 30 feet of IR. 50 to 60 feet at least!

 

I concur with everything that KIWI says.

[rory 0]

is it me, or is that house crooked?

 

Car hits the mailbox, cameras gone, kids drive by and whack the mailbox with bat, cameras gone .. might want to consider that also.

 

Sounds like a lot of work, and dont know if he can run conduit under that sidewalk. Just get a couple bullet cameras for now and try them out physically in your hand or even mount them on the building, 1 color and 1 BW, they are cheap.

Edited January 1, 2008 by Guest

[UMDRanger 0]

It looks like you're not too far from the T-intersection. Since vehicles slow down there, I consider that a chokepoint. You could place a low lux box camera with a 5-50mm lense in an outdoor enclosure on the corner of your house, aimed at that intersection.

 

I did this with the entrance to the parking lot at my apartment building. I had better than expected sucess (I was even shooting through a window). I could see several plate numbers clearly as they entered, before the headlights blinded the camera (thank you light post). And I saw most of the rear plates, as the tail lights weren't quite bright enough to blind the camera.

 

However, the mailbox idea is an outstanding idea. That may be all you need.

[scorpion 0]

There is no better feeling then when the police dept is showing a picture to the "culprit", and they are asking is this you?

 

Everyone to include the "culprit" knows that it is him, and what can the "culprit" say? It was my twin brother! I do not want to go to jail, but I do not want to rat on my twin brother either!!!

 

As to the T intersection. Which way is the entrance to your section of the neighborhood? Do you enter, and exit from the T area, or do you enter, and exit from the bottom of the picture?

 

If there was some kind of event, and the exit is to the bottom of the picture than you will want to point the camera in that direction.

 

I also sell custom bird houses that I use to discuise cameras. They have "license plates" over the roof so that I can make them custom with Pro Sports, College, and many other varieties.

[charlez 0]

Lots of good info so far.

 

Lets say I went with the mailbox idea. I could probably get the cable out there. (not fun, but possible). I was thinking I could probably get a new plastic mailbox like the neighbors with the built in paper holder and drill a hole in the side of it to view out of. Since this camera's primary job would be vehicle ID / Plate ID, a B/W camera would be best. (right?). Now, would I want one with UV illumination for this aplication or not?

 

Before Starting anything, I need to get a good idea of budget. Not looking for a quote, just a ballpark price.

Price on reccomended Mailbox cams.

Price on Day/Night UV Illum. for mounting on House.

Am I looking at $100 cameras or $600 cameras?

 

 

As for the traffic layout, There is a T intersection on each end of the block. This street really goes nowhere and I'd say the direction of vehicle traffic is right at 50% in each direction.

[Scruit 0]

The mailman video, in all of it's tinkly glory...

 

 

As far at catching license plates...

 

Who drives past your house? Is it mostly the folks in your subdivision or are you on a road where anyone is likely to drive down?

 

 

The reason I ask is that I always consider there to be two different types of "identifying" pictures. There's the "Hey, I know that guy!" (ie you recognize the car from down the street) and the "Hey, do YOU know this guy?" (aka the police could put the picture on wanted poster).

 

I've found that it's very easy to get a good clear picture where you would recognise a car that you knew (and could direct the police to the owner so they can find the damaged vehicle) but getting license plates reliably is quite difficult.

 

Lighting conditions, headlight glare etc all play a part. Although I suspect most folks driving down your street aren't gonna have their high beams on, so as long as the camera is above the low-beam pattern you shoudl be ok.

 

You can capture about 50% of license plates with a regular camera and no special lighting. Or you can add IR lighting and lens filter and get 80% or you could get more and more specialized stuff (up to the Extreme line of license plate cameras) and still not get 100%.

 

The reason I say this is because I have a camera dedicated to license plates which is all well and good, but if the plate is unreadable for any reason (many reasons out of my control, such as dirty plate) then that whoel camera image is useless - it's an IR camera so there's no way to tell color, and the image is so zoomed in that it's also difficult to tell what kind of car unless you can recognize a car from it's lower spolier.

 

So, if you *need* to capture license plates then make that IN ADDITION to a camera that is slope enough to tell make and model and identify unique features (such as post hit/run damage pattern, or number and location (not content!) of bumper stickers.)

 

Don't put all your eggs in the LPR basket - even the professionals can't get it 100% (I'm talking about speed/redlight/toll cameras, not the pros on this site!!)

 

If you put cameras in your mailbox then be mindful of parking your truck near it in case you block the view of the fleeing car!

 

 

Also be aware that if your neighbors figure out you are recording plate#s then you may take some heat over it. On the flip side, if someone passes your house and robs a house further down the street then you may be able to help THEM with your video.

[Scruit 0]

More thoughts after seeing your pics again...

 

 

As far as the hit/run - would it help if you found a way to park off-street (like the house that is 2 doors "south" of you with the blue minivan?) like widen your driveway? I did this at my old home after suffering a couple of hit/runs - I bought some sand/gravel and paving stones and built two 'wheel tracks' in the grass beside my driveway so we could park the 3rd car there - no more hit/run issues.

 

Consider that this would not only basically eliminate hit/runs permanently (excepting folks who lose control and leave the roadway) but it would allow you to design your camera system more precisely towards protecting tha car in the driveway.

 

 

 

(I'm not an CCTV professional, just a home user) As far as doing the license plate thing, it looks to me that you'd either need a very detailed camera such as megapixel, or you'd have to use 2 cameras for each direction. Here's my thinking... Assuming your street is north/south, you have 2 directions (car travelling north, cars travelling south) My LPR camers can only reliably get plates at the 95% rate when the car takes up the whole image with-wise. If you point MY camera north then you have to choose between hitting the rear of the northbound car or the front of the southbound car. If you want to capture both front of southbound cars and the back of northbound cameras then you'd need two cameras. If you want to capture both lanes both directions, that's 4 cameras.

 

Now, there's experienced professionals here who may be able to advise you of better cameras and DVR combinations that would allow you to capture plates from an image that is wide enough to capture southbound an northbound cars at the same time... But I can tell you that the entry-level equipment is going give disappointing results if you try too wide. For what you are tying to achieve you HAVE to go for quality over cost.

 

 

Kudos on providing the pics - makes it much easier to advise.

[charlez 0]

As for who drives down my street. I'd say 90% either live on the street or are visiting someone who does. The "problem people" are probably from elsewhere cruising neighborhoods.

 

As for off street parking. I have already expanded the drive once, and it's pretty much at it's limit. In the summer, parking on the street is pretty much required due to my quantity of vehicles / trailers.

 

I was planning on the Mailbox cam as an identifier. The main cams on the house would show what went on, the mailbox cam to identify who. If someone did something in my driveway, it's alot easier to start tracking someone with a plate number than just a face.

 

I agree I have a problem as there is no clear "choke point" Depending on where cars are parked on the street, people will drive down the center/left/right of the street. (26' wide).

 

This is all why i'm asking the experts here before sinking money into a project that may/may not work.

[Scruit 0]

I agree I have a problem as there is no clear "choke point" Depending on where cars are parked on the street, people will drive down the center/left/right of the street. (26' wide).

 

This is all why i'm asking the experts here before sinking money into a project that may/may not work.

 

 

The project will work, it's just a question of being very precise and efficient with your requirements. You're definitely going about the the correct way - understanding your needs and designing to fit the need rather than buying stuff off ebay just becuase it's cheap. ( = me )

 

 

Does your state have front plates? Front plates are difficult anyway because of (1) headlights at night blinding the camera and (2) even if the state requires the front plate doesn't mean it will be there (think temp tags, 'german' plates, folks who think theire cars look better without them, out-of-state cars)

 

It's easier to rear a rear tag, especially at night because of the license plate lights etc - but don't count on them being on.

 

 

If it was me I'd just shoot the backs of the cars in each directon - 2 cameras. Start off with a camcorder (maybe in your truck) pointed at the back of the cars headed in north and try to get an idea of where the plates 'cross' the screen and pick a point on the road that will be the 'kill zone'. The figure out how far right/left the car will usually get from center-of-lane. Remember to account for vehicles with the plate on one side, like the older Pontiac Grand Prix. That will help you figure out what size lens you need to capture all* the cars as they drive away. (all = you won't get all, but as close as possible) The camcorder will allow you to easily adjust zoom etc to find the sweet spot. You can use an online lens calculator to figure out the focal length of the camcorder once you get it right.

 

Once you find this sweet spot and you figure out the lens size etc that you need then you can install the camera in the mailbox.

 

The repeat for the south-facing camera.

 

Bear in mind where the truck will be parked on the street when you put that the camera in the mailbox. You should probably park south of the mailbox because the south-facing camera will be pointing to the other side of the street so the angle won't be as acute.

[Scruit 0]

 

Ok, experts... Am I *totally* full of snot or what?

[bike_rider 0]

First, excellent documentation on the requirements and understanding of the issues. Congratulations.

 

You are right about no clear choke point in theory, but if your neighbors drive like mine, the center of the street is a safe target. If you can set the iris on the camera, you might be able to get a longer depth of field to make the kill zone longer. (I've never actually tried that yet). I second the idea of shooting the backs of cars. Scruit's got a good diagram.

 

One color camera mounted on the house with a wide view, will give you day time vehicle color. Use B/W cameras for everything else.

 

I have a camera that I can set the shutter speed on. If I let it go in "auto" mode, I get blurry cars (35 mph) even in day light. If I force it to 1/300 (or so), I get nice crisp images. Of course it can't see at night at that speed. I'm still working on that issue.

 

Get out that tape measure for everything before you buy a lens. I've got one or two lenses that I wish were a little longer because I eyeballed the requirements.

 

If you budget about $350 per camera (and lens), that should give you room to get some nice BW box cameras for the mailbox. For the color camera, it is hard to beat the Panasonic CP-484. My wife and I are always amazed at how well that camera sees in low light.

[Kiwi 0]

Given the generous space available in the mailbox newspaper slot you could use two true day/night box cams with approx 8mm (varifocal) auto iris lenses. I've had good results with the JVC camera in my sig below and it's only ~US$209. That will fit a budget of about $300 per cam, and give you 24-hr utilization. Otherwise a monochrome box cam will cost 2/3 that but only work at night. Monochrome board cameras could be had for <$80 each but I think are not going to give you the quality you expect.

 

The challenge lies in building these cameras into the mailbox space such that they are well-hidden and also easily adjusted in-situ for precise angle, elevation, focal length, and focus.

 

Depending on whether you care if your neighbors know about your little "project," it's useful if the camera assembly could be quickly installed and removed as a plug-in module.

 

Perhaps others have better ideas but I have used the glass from 35mm SLR camera filters (such as a 55mm neutral density) as a stealthy window.

 

Lastly, you need to be careful to shield glare from the streetlight, and sunlight if applicable. A lip around the window to keep rain off is helpful too.

 

I'm not a pro either - just a home user. Been working on my system casually for years, an interesting and practical hobby.

[DVR MAN 0]

With the plastic mail box that you show, you may be able to mount the cams in the mailbox post. Then you would not risk having mail or mail man disturbing the wiring or cam placement. The in post cams may even survive a baseball bat attack on the box.

[Metal Shaper Man 0]

Considering how nice the home appears in the picture, I think I would want to put up a nice lamp post, maybe, strait off from the front entrance. With the lamp post, the electrical, lighting and mounting is all in one package. Of course, there are many variables involved. First is, where should you place the camera within the lamp post or fixture. Second, how large the lamp post or light fixture must be in order to accommodate the camera. With a good search and some creative thinking you could most likely find a nice lamp post to meet you needs. As for covert needs, the lens might look like nothing more than a day/night sensor for the lamp. You may also want to set the post so there’s a post over a post so you can swivel one post over the other, hence, adjust the cameras direction or view.