Help picking some cameras

[equate975 0]

Hello guys. I am pretty new to CCTV. My main field is just computer/server management for SMB.

 

Right now my employer is remodeling one of his restaurants, and wants me to put in a CCTV system.

 

Attached is the new floorplan we are going to have, and some rough estimates for camera placement and angles I would like to cover. The ceilings will be 12 feet high, all other dimensions are on the plan.

 

It looks like I am looking at 8 cameras total, 6 standard cams, and 2 PTZ.

 

Could someone recommend what cameras I should look at? I did some reading and have a rough idea what a "good" camera is, but I am still not sure about the specifics. What I really don't like is I can't see what each camera looks like. I don't want to spend $1500 on cameras and have them all look like garbage.

 

As for the DVR card, I think I may just go with a geovision 8 camera card of some flavor. I would expect that the final card would be matched up with whatever cameras I decide to get.

 

Any help would be great. Thanks!!

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

I can't link the floorplan, I don't have enough posts for it. If you go to tinyurl dot com slash 34eo7f you can see it.

[dubwiser 0]

If you're shopping for the 6 cams + 2PTZ, $1500 wont get you there. A lower end PTZ is going to run you $750 at the very least. Theres your 1500.00 in PTZ's alone.

 

My opinion is PC based surveillance is sketchy if you want round the clock operation and especially if your on a budget You can get a really decent stand alone unit for the cost of a GV card.

[UMDRanger 0]

As much as I love PTZs (and boy do I love them), for a resturant, I think you are wasting your money. The only place I can think to justify one is to cover the parking lot, in order to zoom in and get license plates. But the loss from a few bad customers who leave without paying won't cover the cost of the camera, and you'd need to see them leave and control the camera to view the plate.

 

I would however, put a still camera viewing the parking lot. Very helpful in case of "accidents". Nothing is better than giving the tape to the insurance company to counter a false claim.

 

Since you likely can't afford a high end system like American Dynamics Intellex with the POS integration, but do still want Point of Sale integration to monitor cash theft, I would recommend Geovision.

 

I have had good luck with Geovision, cards as relatively simple to install, and PCs are cheap enough to make on your own. Hard drives are cheap enough to give you plenty of retention. And, Geovision has POS integration among it's other nifty features.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

Unless if you will have someone at this restaurant available to operate PTZ domes, you are wasting money...

 

Instead, as UMDRanger recommended, place few cameras to cover your parking lot from at least two different angles and that will cover most of the parking area... Dependent on your lighting conditions at this parking lot, you can pick up decent day/night cameras that will give you crisp color picture during the day and b&w picture during the night...

 

As for indoors, we used minidome cameras covering the entire facility, including even the cook's areas... and eight cameras basically is an overage for typical restaurant... I will suggest various manufacturers that produce such hardware and you can insist at least 480TVL color and good AutoIris lens.

 

Building your own system is fine and could save or loose money dependent your choice of computers and software... My angle is different - if you will be operating this and seems that you are computer savvy, then this route is great... and if not, then you other choice is what is called embedded systems that are extremely simple to use, easy to program and are very cost effective... Basically such system have embedded software built into flash, so the hard drives are used strictly to store video... no need for updates or upgrades...

 

If you need recommendations on specific hardware, let us know and I am sure others will also give you more info...

[equate975 0]

Ah thanks for the info guys. I guess I can do without the PTZ, I didn't look up how expensive they were.

 

I have to redesign my idea I guess anyways, my employer didn't like the size of the cameras I picked out. I guess the idea is to make it "stealth" so the customers don't look up and see a camera right in their face.

 

He showed me a system he found (some random embedded deal he found in a magazine that was a grand) with little bullet cams with IR for night. Thats along the lines he wants to go.

 

My main concern is how far out bullet cams can see. Plus its going to be a low light environment.

 

I agree with the geovision card, I did some reading and they seem to be the most popular and decently priced. From what I can tell it looks good to me.

 

Could you guys recommend a bullet cam (or minidome should work fine) that I could use? One issue I need to overcome is the night vision. If I get cams with IR, do I have to use IR all the time? Since its low light mostly all the time, I don't want the IR to always be on. One Idea I had was to get cams without IR, then get some of those IR floodlights so to speak, that you plug into the wall and they emit the IR. I could just control them with a timer or something, so the IR will turn on after we are closed.

 

Unless you can control the IR through geovision on a timer or otherwise.

 

Again thanks for the help!

 

 

Edit:

 

Just an idea, would buying a card and camera package like one of these be good?

 

[edit by mod - store links removed]

[dubwiser 0]

Check this one out. It's kind of a bullet/dome hybrid. This ones got great IR for 30 - 40 feet, 480 LOR, IR cut filter etc.. The LED's activate only when lowlight is detected. Also, its comapct in size and will look better mounted than a bullet or a big ugly dome camera.

 

Im assuming since this is a restaurant installation the owner would like these cameras to be less than noticeable.

 

The forum wont let me post a link so go ahead and google this model number:

 

VTC-IRHCM1A

 

There are many no-name releases of this camera. I've only used this Vitek model so I can't speak to the reliability of the others.

 

Good luck

[equate975 0]

Check this one out. It's kind of a bullet/dome hybrid. This ones got great IR for 30 - 40 feet, 480 LOR, IR cut filter etc.. The LED's activate only when lowlight is detected. Also, its comapct in size and will look better mounted than a bullet or a big ugly dome camera.

 

Im assuming since this is a restaurant installation the owner would like these cameras to be less than noticeable.

 

The forum wont let me post a link so go ahead and google this model number:

 

VTC-IRHCM1A

 

There are many no-name releases of this camera. I've only used this Vitek model so I can't speak to the reliability of the others.

 

Good luck

 

 

Looks pretty good, do you have a sample video of it in action I could see? Also, are you mostly in low light too?

 

Thanks!

[dubwiser 0]

Here ya go. The DVR capture is two of these cameras mounted by the front and the rear of the vehicle in a very dark (almost pitch dark) alley. Theres good value in this ball cam. I would recommend it for many applications. Go for the 4mm lens to achieve a wider angle.

[rory 0]

Looking at the images above, it is showing IR (very minimal), some BW or grayscale, as well as color in the areas where the light is. This leads me to not believe their IR Cut Filter feature exists.

 

Ideas?

 

Also, it seems your boss has made up his mind on an inferior system, let him buy it but warn him first. When he sees how horrible the images are you can then say you told him so

 

Seriously ... look for some color Dome cameras with a 4-8mm varifocal lens - very important - 811x504 Pixels.

 

Samsung Techwin and Nuvico have some decent enough at a lower cost, also Ganz, its indoors then just get some of them, otherwise go day night for outdoors where there is little to low light, use SEPERATE IR where it is pitch dark or even better use Motion Lighting.

 

Having not seen the property it is difficult to say, and your budget of total retail $1500 leaves little room for anything of decent quality. The products i mentioned above are more mid range products but those alone will break your budget easily.

 

Going back to my first idea, let the boss buy the product so he doesn't blame you for a $1500 mistake.

 

GeoVision would be great but along with the PC required I doubt it will fit in that budget. Budget 8 Channel stand alone DVRs are also not easy to come by (with LAN) though could check out the Nuvico JV series.

[dubwiser 0]

These cameras obviously are mounted outside but not fully exposed to the elements. They've seen some heavy rains lately and the picture is totally unaffected. They dont claim it's outdoor although it's built like one.

 

IR cut filter may be where they stretched it a bit. It says it has Automatic Removeable IR Cut FIlter????? No idea what that is??Nice camera overall though.....especially for what it costs me. Also, its compact, low power consumption, I think the IR range stacks up pretty well for a camera under the 200 dollar mark. It also shows better IR range when the neigbors porch light is off.

 

Ill grab a day pic of it and post it when I get a chance.

 

This dome works pretty well for me but It's twice the price......I believe it has true I/R cut feature, vp, etc. The top shot I grabbed at a lower resolution then the night shot below it.

[rory 0]

Could mean they put the IR Cut Filter over in the day. But then still typically True Day Night feature means 100% BW at night in higher resolution BW Mode and with more low light sensitivity. Seeing the mixed IR with color represents a camera without an IR cut filter, typically that is, a Color/IR camera or even an Exview Color Camera, for example.

 

Ofcourse the spec sheet etc are most likely done by a marketing firm for them (US based company selling OEM cameras) so ..

 

Honestly after having used their BW bullet camera recently I'm a little weary of anything their spec sheets say, though that can also go for most manufacturers, and OEM or not.

 

PS. that stairs west one doesnt look like its fun to clean

[dubwiser 0]

Right. Cameras like this aren't tested thoroughly.

 

Mopping those stairs is no party. That and if you forget to wear your non slip soles on a rainy day, you're involuntarily ice skating down those steps. I've got video to prove it.

 

You recommended Nuvico and Samsung Techwin DVR's. I agree 100%. I'm using both, but the SVR1630 wins hands down over a DV4. The shots of the car are from an SVR440. I think he would be happy with an 8 ch. S-T unit. BTW.......would you recommend Nuvico domes?

 

thanks

[rory 0]

Actually for his budget he cant afford any of those, I was recommending the Nuvico JV series which has an 8 channel at a budget price tag.

 

Havent used the Nuvico Domes, but going by the specs they should be good - once the specs are at least close.

 

I have to be honest though, the picture from all these new OSD cameras (or cameras with OSDs etc, all their Sense Up, Prevent Noise, etc) really put out some crappy images overall, and they arent even cheap. Precious memories of the camera generation before these where the images were actually decent .. now . .. its all changed .. I just trashed a new GE Day Night Camera I received as a demo, all those features and the IR Cut Filter still kept sticking .. I just threw it in the Garabage .. fed up, not one of its stupid OSD features makes the image look good anyways ($400 camera .. dont know what drunked tested that one!)

 

going back to color bullets and BW exview bullets, they just work

wanna see in the dark ... motion light .. $15! And they should change the meaning of the Vandal Resistant Outdoor Dome to Most Difficult to Install and not worth it in many cases ..

 

PS. vent ova .. bottom line the manufacturers arent listening to us end users, we want simple to install and high quality, plug and play

[zmxtech 0]

$1500 where did your boss pull that from ? that would just cover a DVR here...[oz]

 

your parking lot should have a wide angle D-N cam and maybe a numberplate cam or one down low grabbing plates/drivers

 

-went to thailand last week all the parking lots have them 1.5m off the ground ! -really in your face ..... if you dont look out your car mirror will hit them -that close.... -but it does the job.

 

-those stair shots are 80% `walls` put a 12mm lens or so and tighten up the shot [you should get a nice pic of just the door and 1m around it]

 

-might be an idea to have 1 D-N cam inside in case of a break in.

-gotta have a choke point near the front door -cam there grabbing heads...

 

my 2c

[Rebco 0]

First off looking at your floorplan i would say double the cameras. Just my stupid opinion.

 

I had a customer tell me that he could get a system for $1500.00 one time and he did Cosco brand he used it for 2 weeks and called me back asking me if i could use the cameras he bought I told him no. Gave him a quote with more labor because now i had to take the other cameras down, Installed a 12 camera system. He ended up selling the old Cosco stuff for $200.00 to a friend. Like Rory said let you boss do what he wants. So then when he is not happy he can't blame it on you. You get what you pay for..... $1500.00 might cover the cameras, maybe.

 

Ok now for the hallway picture the IRs are reflecting off the walls and your getting that halo affect. Like zmxtech said get a different lens and picture would look better, again just my stupid opinion.

 

 

The Nuvico domes are pretty good i use the all the time.

[dubwiser 0]

-those stair shots are 80% `walls` put a 12mm lens or so and tighten up the shot [you should get a nice pic of just the door and 1m around it

 

I wasn't going for a tight shot on the door. I want slip n falls on the stairs and boxed product going up the stairs and out the door during shop hours (video evidence in the unfortunate event that either of these occur). There are another 14 cameras onsite to cover the doors.

[dubwiser 0]

 

your parking lot should have a wide angle D-N cam and maybe a numberplate cam or one down low grabbing plates/drivers

 

Actually, three cameras wasn't going to be feasible as this had to be as covert an installation as possible. Also, there was a tight budget, which put more restraints on us than anything else.

 

Well, it worked. I have video of the arson we were hunting in action. He lit the Dodge on fire once before the cameras and once after. He never saw the LED's which was my main concern. I now have decent facial ID and a wide enough shot to show that this guy is a smoker, where's a Mexican poncho, baggy shorts and Filas. LAPD has video and is looking at a few different folks in the neigborhood.

[Rebco 0]

Hey dubwiser, I wasn't saying it was bad and please don't take it that way just cameras hate white an when you add ir's forget it, we all have to give the customer what they want no matter what....If it works & you got paid than thats all that counts..

Edited January 19, 2008 by Guest

[dubwiser 0]

No offense taken, my friend. I was actually Quoting another forum member and responding. The more communication we have in this forum, the better we all get. Everybody wins.

 

thanks

[securitysys 0]

He ended up selling the old Cosco stuff for $200.00 to a friend.

 

Why?? He could of returned it to Costco for a full refund. Unless he's one of the customers on the list .

[zmxtech 0]

ahh good to hear you busted the sucker, sorry missed the covert need...

 

good luck with the police -every time I have given them a picture of a crim I think they go for donuts instead...

 

z

[dubwiser 0]

 

good luck with the police -every time I have given them a picture of a crim I think they go for donuts instead...

 

z

 

Aint that the truth.

[equate975 0]

Ah forgot about this thread!

 

Anyways, $1500 would be just the cams and DVR (should have clarified that) the PC, wire, install time, ect... wasn't in that. Even with the $1500 its just a ball park. Even $2,000 wouldn't be bad. He just doesn't want me to spend like $10,000 on a system.

[Rebco 0]

I can only say good luck and then when the SH$t hits the fan when something happends and he holds you responsible. You will probably be saying i should of listened to those F$%ing guys on the forum. $1,500.00 will get you 3 really good cameras. Like people say you get what you pay for.

 

I had a guy near me quote a 29 camera job for $9,000.00 And no this is not a joke or a typo......I will keep in contact with the owner because when the sytem breaks i will just have to replace everything and pay me more to take out the crap he's paying for now.

 

I read the average camera install is $1,500 for one camera so you want 8 cameras times $1500.00 do the math.

[cctothetv 0]

You might want to try Eclipse. They have two exclusive products that are right up your alley, ECL-598HIM for an IR bullet and ECL-NUBIX8 for a stand alone DVR with built in POS awesome client software. Even though they are relatively cheap for the quality you get, $1500 will get you a DIY Q-see system from Costco that will most likely break after 3 months and will be useless when trying to submit evidence for investigation and especially for prosecution..