rory 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Ok, so someone send me some Pelco and AD PTZs, some Baluns, Cat5 (that expensive stuff now), and oh, well, okay a couple DVRs too .. then I will test it in a Bahamian scenario for yah (oh yeah, need to pay Customs Duty too cause they will eat me alive!!) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Ok, so someone send me some Pelco and AD PTZs, some Baluns, Cat5 (that expensive stuff now), and oh, well, okay a couple DVRs too .. then I will test it in a Bahamian scenario for yah (oh yeah, need to pay Customs Duty too cause they will eat me alive!!) On its way Rory May be I will send you Pelco and Survtech will send you AD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 20, 2008 What does this discussion have to do with your dislike of Pelco? Unless you want to stretch the point to say that the passive device in the Spectra IV is a problem, then we still have the point that we are also testing the baluns on receive only with the transmitter being the NVT balun built into the Ganz ZCD domes. It would be like me stating that I hate AD in a conversation about sports cars. And believe me I dislike AD, but I wouldn't normally bring that into this discussion. Still, in a previous discussion about baluns, I stated that the VBU balun looked exactly like the GVI on the outside and someone stated that many balun manufacturers use the same case. Apparently, at least two also use the same guts. You stressed the point that VBU makes only baluns and that theirs are unique. Obviously, that is not the case. I'll concede the point that at $30 a pair, if they do perform as well as the GVI's, they are an excellent bargain. Survtech, your misinterpreting what this post is about and rather focusing on my dislike of a company?... I do not care which company you use and whose products you like... that isn't the point of this post... rather facts pertinent to video baluns... If you want to get technical, then lets do that... Lets bring top guns in this process and lets go into the design and results available using spectrum analyzers, type of signal generators used and validation of data... and lets bring both manufacturers in this process for them to validate their claims... I know that I can bring VU in this discussion (by the way, they already are a member) and you can bring GVI and let them battle... and then we can compare our notes based on the facts... Is this what you want? Your insinuation that I am pro-AD is also totally inaccurate... If you really have to know, my preference always have been and always will be Bosch... and I mean everything Bosch. Nothing out there can come close to the complete selection of solutions available from Bosch... and I do not think anyone, including your Pelco, is capable doing what Bosch has to offer. If the purpose of this post is video baluns, then lets stay with video baluns.. If I do not wish to comment on a product from a manufacturer, you can interpret it whatever you want - like or dislike of a company. May be we should have a separate post just for this topic alone, what do you think? May be we can lay down our cards and show the world what these companies are made of and who actually is doing a good job and who is just screwing people. This way we can clarify and probably bring forward information that is not very well known in this industry... If you do want this post to appear, then you and I will have yet another problem - you are an end user, we are integrators and distributors... so chances are very good that our opinions will clash again and again, as you are exposed only on what manufacturers want you to see... In our case, nothing will pass by us without scrutiny of any product they offer and we can and will stop them on their tracks, if they are out of line or state facts that may not be true... and trust me, I have caught too many pre-mediated incidents in my 29 years in this industry from various manufacturers, including your Pelco, that was headed to screw people... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Hey, you started the Pelco thing, not me. And all I said was that I dislike AD, no inferrence about your feelings about them was either stated or implied. I would prefer to limit the thread to discussions of baluns and active devices. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 20, 2008 I would prefer to limit the thread to discussions of baluns and active devices. Lets do that... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) SEE BELOW! Edited February 21, 2008 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 20, 2008 You are fast man... I guess if all of them fall in same performance category, then the only question is whose pricing is the best?? Can you share this info? I know the pricing for VU is $30.00 for PAIR of their baluns... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) The Vigitron VB1001M cost us $xx.xx each. The GVI VB-59 and VideoEase cost $xx.xx each. I don't have pricing on the VBU baluns yet because they were "loaners". I'll post their price when received from our distributor. Edited February 20, 2008 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Im not picky, Pelco or AD, heck, even Everfocus. I dont mind Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 20, 2008 The Vigitron VB1001M cost us $28.00 each. The GVI VB-59 and VideoEase cost $28.50 each. I don't have pricing on the VBU baluns yet because they were "loaners". I'll post their price when received from our distributor. VU pricing that I can get for you is $30.00 for PAIR - $15.00 each! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 20, 2008 The Vigitron VB1001M cost us $28.00 each. The GVI VB-59 and VideoEase cost $28.50 each. I don't have pricing on the VBU baluns yet because they were "loaners". I'll post their price when received from our distributor. VU pricing that I can get for you is $30.00 for PAIR - $15.00 each! * psst * retail price? Want the admin to body slam me from around this forum hey Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 20, 2008 * psst * retail price? Want the admin to body slam me from around this forum hey Isn't that a moderator's job ? "rory Moderator & Founding Member Posts: 13526 Joined: 10 Nov 2003 Location: Bahamas" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 20, 2008 * psst * retail price? Want the admin to body slam me from around this forum hey Isn't that a moderator's job ? "rory Moderator & Founding Member Posts: 13526 Joined: 10 Nov 2003 Location: Bahamas" Ok, please will you guys edit your posts with the retail pricing (or could start a new thread in the dealer section ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Rory, I am not welcome in Dealers section remember? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 21, 2008 ok so it seems we are probably talking retail prices anyway so yall just ignore me yah hear .. (contact the admin he might let you guys in ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Rory, I am not welcome in Dealers section remember? WOW!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 21, 2008 That is what I said too... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Here are the first results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,500 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 270 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 1,200 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE VideoEase Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 092 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 039 IRE Luminance 147 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 027 IRE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are the second results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,000 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 70 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 900 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE VideoEase Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 087 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 036 IRE Luminance 150 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 024 IRE Notes: As you may have surmised, there are literally no measurable differences between the four baluns, since +/- 001IRE is basically the meter's resolution limits. Also, the picture on a high resolution JVC 21" color monitor shows no discernible differences between the four passive devices. On another note: On the first test at 1,500 ft., there were very obvious defects in the passive-passive video quality as compared to the passive-active. The picture was "washed out" and high brightness areas showed color fringing (rainbows of color) in them. The signal was strong enough to record a useable picture on our DVR system (Honeywell Enterprise). On the second test at 1,000 ft., the defects were far more subtle. The color fringing nearly disappeared; the washed out contrast improved immensely and the recorded video was nearly perfect. Conclusions: * There are no practical differences between the baluns listed and likely few differences in any reasonably well-made passive baluns. * Since the picture quality at 1,000 ft. was very good, I would say that the generally accepted limit of 750 ft. passive-passive is both valid and practical and at 500 ft. (the longest run inside the casino) it is comparable to RG-59 coax. * Since we did not test using other cable types, our findings only apply to the above listed cable types. * We have also used the following CAT-5E cables inside the casino with similar results: ** Arrow Wire 09LR-350EA4-6 CAT-5E 4-pair ** Arrow Wire 09-E5EA25-8 Cat-5E 25-pair Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Survtech, I think you bottleneck is the NVT passive balun that came with CBC minidome... Even though this model from CBC is been obsolete, the data is still there... Will you be able to use the pairs of each model of baluns for the entire test purposes, instead of mixing them with NVT at the minidome side and different balun from another manufacturer at the termination side? Your numbers are very impressive. Even when all come close to what you have observed, then the only question that you need to ask of course is the cost per pair of such hardware... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Survtech, I think you bottleneck is the NVT passive balun that came with CBC minidome... Even though this model from CBC is been obsolete, the data is still there... Will you be able to use the pairs of each model of baluns for the entire test purposes, instead of mixing them with NVT at the minidome side and different balun from another manufacturer at the termination side? Unfortunately, that may not be possible. Although we do have multiple quantities of each balun in stock, the Ganz ZCD series don't have space to install an external balun and the way they are mounted (pendant) makes it very difficult to put a balun outside the dome. Plus they are in quite heavily-travelled areas of our parking structure. Maybe we could just perform the experiment on our bench with a 1000 ft. box of CAT-5E. I'll try it when we have the time. I have been thinking about measuring the cameras directly at the source as a yardstick. I also believe we can adapt one of the NVT transmitters to be a receiver (they are a block module on a PC Board). We bought a batch with the baluns, used some with twisted-pair and removed the baluns from the ones we used with coax. Then we bought a bunch without baluns and installed the baluns in them when needed. We still have quite a few balun boards. We could test them as receivers to see if they exhibit different attenuations from the other 4. If they do, we can assume that the NVT transmitters are limiting the signal. If they don't, it is likely, but not certain, that they are not. Perhaps I should do this whole thing in a separate thread. Moderator / Admin - are you listening? My guess is that the NVT's will show almost exactly the same characteristics as the rest of them. Considering the relatively wide range of baluns in the test (the VideoEase baluns are at least 6 years old), I strongly suspect that balun design is pretty much a standardized item and there is little, if any, variation from manufacturer to manufacturer - despite sales hype to the contrary. By the way, GVI is touting their built-in surge protection: http://www.gviss.com/Portals/0/GVIProductImages/352/GV-VB59SP%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf Small world, eh! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CraigVM62 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Well, my question was answered. I especially liked the discussion about cable quality. I confess I more often than not stock up on what ever Cat-5e is on special for the cheapest price Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lolo Wolf 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Enjoying this ongoing post on Baluns, wonder how many people realize that we can thank Geanelli Guanella back in 1944 (Bell Labs) for the video Balun technology of today being discussed (application was radio broadcast) His balun was a 16:1 matching transformer constructed of coiled transmission lines. -just a little history break Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Survtech, great ideas man... As long as your control the test for the optimum results... I do not think NVT will measure up with your tests... Very close observation on their spec sheets reveals that they do not recommend stretch of the cable more than 750 and I concur with them. When we run tests while back, NVT did come short on the test results and yet their baluns were the most expensive. Further research found many other manufacturers, which also brought VU in the picture and the rest became a history. I think we can start another thread just for baluns alone. I am not sure why admin or the moderators may mind... afterall, this is real info for everyone to observe and comment and more importantly, sharpen everyones knowledge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Yes, perhaps start a new thread, if not done already. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
