Would appreciate thoughts/comments on new cameras

I've spent many hours over the last several days reading this forum for information and tips on what type of surveillance system to purchase. I would like to thank everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It has been quite helpful.

First off, what is my motivation? Well, last week several houses in my immediate area were robbed. They broke into the house across the street from me, tried to get into the next door neighbor's house, along with another house a few doors down (they removed the door handle assembly on the slider but still couldn't get in). At least one house in the next neighborhood was also broken into.

The good news as far as cameras is that I am a clean slate, except that I have a Synology DS412+ server. It has a Dual Core 2.13GHz processor (Intel Atom D2700 Dualcore (2C/4T) 2.13GHz x86 Processor 64-bit@DDR3, 1GB of RAM) and 2 LAN with Failover and Link Aggregation Support (Gigabit x 2).

Since I own the Synology, I would like to take advantage of it for storage. The Synology website has a list of cameras that are supported for specific versions of either Synology's OS or Synology's own camera surveillance, which is called Surveillance Station. In short, it's two parts confusing and one part intimidating. There are all sorts of cameras approved for specific versions of either the OS or the Surveillance Station. On the other hand, it is a good thing that so many cameras are possible.

I have pretty much narrowed it down to Axis or Samsung. I have read really good things about Axis. Besides that, Synology has what they refer to as "Optimized camera brands". It is supposed to help with "advanced camera integration" and "customizing". Even recognizing that this is at least part marketing, I would appreciate the extra ease of use. Although I enjoy some tinkering, I would like to avoid constant tinkering. For a non-IT guy, I'm fairly tech-savy. I've built my own HTPC and also help my parents with their surveillance system (its from Speco).

We are mainly a Mac household. As far as other PC's, I have the HTPC which is on all of the time (it has an internal cable card for one TV and runs two additional XBOX's). I throw that out there in case that would help with any suggestions.

I am looking at the Axis P3364-VE. It's more than I would like to spend, but I would rather spend a little more now than end up with a camera that I am disappointed with and replace in relatively short order. As I said above, I don't want a camera that I need to constantly tinker with.

My main goal is for a camera for the front of my house. It would be mounted under the eve of my two story house. The house is set back about 50 feet from the street. I'm not sure how well I will be able to catch both the driveway (which is to the left of where the camera will be mounted), as well as front door, which is to the right.

Can the P3364-VE essentially look straight down from where it will be mounted? The front door is about 18 or 20 feet (horizontally) from the mount position. The front of my house is flat, except that the two-car garage sticks out about 5 or 6 feet from the front of the main part of the house. Obviously, I would like the camera to pick up the driveway in front of the garage - down to the street.

I've read that Synology's software has not caught up with Mac's newest software because of a java issue. However, it's something that I'll just deal with. Using the Axis software is another option.

I would certainly like to be able to check the cameras from iOS products (iPhone and/or iPad). It looks like there are options, although not great ones), through Axis. I can't recall if there are options through Synology.

I would also like to cover the backyard. If I do so, I will need two cameras because of the shape of the house. I am considering two P3363-VE's for the back yard. Again, I am pushing my finances on these. I thought about getting Samsungs for the backyard, but I have concerns about mixing camera manufacturers. Wouldn't I lose the ability to use the Axis software if I mix cameras?

My backyard is pretty small. Each of the cameras in the back would only need to cover an area that is about 30 feet by 15 feet. Also, I have motion sensing flood lights back there, so low light cameras is not extremely important.

For PoE, I am considering the Zyxel 16 port switch, mainly due to what I have read about it's ability to supply power if I add cameras in the future.

Any and all comments and/or suggestions would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance!

The P33 can look straight out/down. You can use any NAS with this camera if you use the free Axis Camera Companion but it requires Windows to run. You can wait for the p3364-lve coming out soon that has an IR illuminator built in. If you want to save some money, ACTi is coming out with a 1080P low light dome with illuminators, probably cost 2/3rd the Axis but double the resolution. Samsung i would not get.

Mixing brands only matters if you want to use the company's software, for example, if you think you may end up using Axis Camera Companion, then stick with that brand. Also makes it a pain finding an NVR as you have to find one that supports all your brands. I'm at that point where I can't find good software that supports all my brands. I can find one that supports 2 out of 4, and one that supports the other 2, but not all 4.

i have the ds-412+, it's a nice system. make sure you're updated to the latest version of diskstation manager (dsm 4.1) as well as the latest build of the 'surveillance station' package.

as buell says, mixing brands is not a problem if they're all supported by your recorder (assuming you use surveillance station). if you use the axis software, it will only work with the axis cameras... but it also requires a dedicated pc (you *could* use another computer that used for everyday things, but it's never recommended - a surveillance recorder should always have its own machine).

You don't need a dedicated PC with Axis Camera Companion as the P33 cameras write directly to a NAS or SD card. You only need to run the software when you want to setup a new camera or view the cameras or recordings, but you can do what I do on a Mac, run VMWare Fusion or Parallels with Windows. i leave Windows running all the time and rarely reboot my Macbook Air. When I have to do something on Windows, it's just a quick click on the program icon and with Fusion Unity, only a single window opens, not the entire Windows desktop. ACC is free vs. $50/camera for Synology camera licenses.

Many thanks for the quick responses! Much appreciated!

Buell - Thanks for doing the blog. The information there is quite helpful.

Is there any news on when the LVE models will be out? I read the press release from Axis which said they were due out in the second quarter of 2012. It seems to have been predicted to be out several months since then. It sorta makes me wonder how long I will be waiting. Also, does it make any sense to have an SD card in the camera? For example, if the connection to the Synology fails for some reason, will it fail-over to the SD card?

Any news on when the new ACTi is coming out?

With regards to Synology's $50 license fee, is that only required for Surveillance Station? I wasn't sure if it was for Surveillance Station or for just hooking up the camera to the Synology in general. In other words, can I avoid the $50/camera license fee if I use Axis Camera Companion? If so, then I might just use the Axis software through my HTPC for the time being.

Groucho - I am pretty sure that I am all up to date on the Synology (well, I don't currently have Surveillance Station running). Before I add a camera(s), I'll check again. Do you use your DS412+ for your cameras? How has it worked? The DS412+ is rated for a total frame rate (FPS) of 200 FPS @ 720p (1280x800). Seems like plenty, but I have read on this forum where people with Synology's questioned whether the Synology could record from several cameras while also streaming a 1080p movie. However, the reference seemed to be for lower end Synology's.

Also, has anyone used any good iOS applications for the Axis?

Thanks again!

With regards to Synology's $50 license fee, is that only required for Surveillance Station? I wasn't sure if it was for Surveillance Station or for just hooking up the camera to the Synology in general. In other words, can I avoid the $50/camera license fee if I use Axis Camera Companion? If so, then I might just use the Axis software through my HTPC for the time being.

 

Groucho - I am pretty sure that I am all up to date on the Synology (well, I don't currently have Surveillance Station running). Before I add a camera(s), I'll check again. Do you use your DS412+ for your cameras? How has it worked? The DS412+ is rated for a total frame rate (FPS) of 200 FPS @ 720p (1280x800). Seems like plenty, but I have read on this forum where people with Synology's questioned whether the Synology could record from several cameras while also streaming a 1080p movie. However, the reference seemed to be for lower end Synology's.

i don't use mine for my cameras, no - i've only done some minimal testing with a couple of dahua and iqeye cameras.

if you want to use the write-to-nas feature in the camera, it wouldn't cost you a license, but the camera would need to support that feature (not all do), and the camera would have to provide a way to playback the video, or you'd need to play it back directly off the disk with player software and probably no search capability.

the per-camera fee is for using the surveillance station application, which pulls streams from supported cameras, stores them, and allows you to search them and play them back (among other things). a per-camera fee is common on most nvrs that support a variety of cameras. the price you pay for the development it takes to add support for new cameras amongst everything else.

many camera manufacturers provide their own free nvr software, but the catch is, it almost always *only* works with that brand of camera.

ACTi said late January for the 1080P IR dome.

Axis did say last year but didn't release it yet. When I ask, it's any day now, so your guess is as good as mine. IR domes are the hardest of cameras to get right and this is their first.

If you use the Synology as a NAS, then like Groucho says, you don't pay the fee.

Hi Hitch. I just got back from vacation and noticed your post. I think that I have almost exactly the setup you are considering, I have a DS1511+ DiskStation and am using Surveillance Station to drive four cameras total...

2X P3364-VE

2X Samsung SNV-5080R

I have not had issues with either of these camera models and the Surveillance Station. Initially I was going to go with all Samsung cameras but ended up stumbling onto an amazing price on the P3364-VE and finished my install with a pair of them instead.

Comparing the cameras against each other, they are both pretty capable but the low light capability of the Axis as well as the 2.5mm wide angle performance on the 6mm version of the camera simply blow the Samsungs away. In my case I put the Samsungs in very dark doorways, so having the integrated illuminators is a nice plus, but it is possible that the Axis would actually still do a decent job in those areas.

I have my Axis cameras installed under eave corners on two corners of a large 3500 square foot home. One camera has no illumination other than a couple of street lights 100+ feet away and has a fantastic picture when it switches into night mode. The second camera is at the front/driveway location and I had previously installed an Axton 12V IR illuminator in that spot, and the performance is excellent... not sure how it would be without the external IR but I expect it would still be quite good.

I think you will be okay with either camera model, but the stronger integration and support for Axis in almost every NVR software/hardware out there might make it worth spending the extra money.

You could also go the budget route and give one of the Dahua domes a try. I'm sure that the night time performance is not up to par compared to Axis but they are cheap enough to be essentially disposable. They aren't explicitly supported by Surveillance Station but you might get it working using a generic ONVIF profile.

As to Surveillance Station itself, it works fairly well. It supports motion based recording which is a plus and it has a "sync" playback feature so that if you have a lot of cameras you can watch playback on all of them synced together. It's pretty nice to be able to watch the previous day or two of footage at a high speed to see if anything suspicious was going on (burglars casing your house, etc). Surveillance Station does have a mobile app that works pretty well, I actually have a 8.9 Android tablet sitting on a small table near my front door which runs the Surveillance Station mobile application 24X7 and allows me to view any or all of the cameras... it's really nice when the door bell rings and I can take a quick look at that tablet and see if it's UPS, a door to door salesman, or someone I actually want to talk to. Keep in mind that Surveillance Station only works well with the mobile app if you use the MJPEG codec from your cameras.

You get one free license for a single camera with the Synology, so I would say purchase a camera, and compare how Surveillance Station works compared to the camera's built in DVR software before spending the cash on more camera licenses.

Good luck and let me know if you have any questions, I have pretty much the same setup you are contemplating.

Buellwinkle - Thanks, again, for the information. I'll certainly look into the ACTi cameras. Looks like I will cross Samsung off the list.

I'm sure I will have more posts and questions and will certainly let people know my thoughts and experience.

If I do go Axis, I am now thinking that I will buy one right now - the P3364-VE. I'll mount it and then see if the ones with the Integrated IR come out soon. If so, I'll swap the VE for the LV. If not, I'll buy more of the P3364-VE's. At this point, I think I would like to get 3 cameras.

Voip - While doing searches on here, I ended up following your posts over the last several months. Going to the Samsungs and then the Axis cameras. I ended up doing a search for all your posts.....and feeling like a stalker. Joking aside, I very much appreciated reading your thoughts/comments as I really have been heading down the same road. I wish I could find the Axis cameras anywhere near that price that you were able to. I'd probably abandon the ACTi research and just go with the Axis.

Yes, our Synology boxes are very similar, except that yours can be upgraded with more RAM. I saw your recent post about some frustrations with it. I've done so much reading of late, I don't recall the exact issue, but I thought it was with the software for mobile apps. I don't remember reading about an Android app, but is that how you addressed the issue? Have you tried IPCamViewer for any iOS devices?

Have you ever tried Axis Camera Companion?

My principal frustration with Synology is that currently their OS X integration is broken, now that Apple removed the option for 32 bit Java. Synology has not addressed this and it has now been broken for a couple of months.

Other source of frustration is that if not using MJPEG with the mobile viewer then you will have a lot of connection problems. This almost never happens with MJPEG so I ultimately just switched all of my camera feeds to MJPEG and it works fairly reliably from both Android and iOS running the free Synology surveillance application.

Also, be aware that since the Syno web app uses Java and uses a lot of outbound ports on the network it can be difficult/impossible to get it working if on the other end you are trying to view inside of a network with a tight firewall. I have been unable to use it from hotel networks, my office network, etc.... I've learned to live with this, I just use the mobile app over cellular when I want to check up on things.

There is currently a reseller on Amazon who is selling a few of the P3364-VE 6mm for $649 which is still a very good price, just not as good of a price as I got a month or so ago when I basically stole two cameras at $449 a piece.

I have not tried the Axis companion setup since it does not support my Samsung cameras... I also don't know if it can be used in conjunction with Synology. IP Cam Viewer Pro is "okay" but does not let you view events and so is of little use to me. Frankly I think the app is seriously over-rated and barely worth the $3.99 asking price.

//update

From what I can see, Axis companion works with EyeSpyFX viewer, which is $8 each for iPad and iPhone (and another $8 for Android). It gets pretty crappy reviews, so not sure how good it really is. It's rather disappointing that a company as big and noteworthy as Axis won't spend the $$ to make their own mobile viewer software.

Other source of frustration is that if not using MJPEG with the mobile viewer then you will have a lot of connection problems. This almost never happens with MJPEG so I ultimately just switched all of my camera feeds to MJPEG and it works fairly reliably from both Android and iOS running the free Synology surveillance application.

 

Also, be aware that since the Syno web app uses Java and uses a lot of outbound ports on the network it can be difficult/impossible to get it working if on the other end you are trying to view inside of a network with a tight firewall. I have been unable to use it from hotel networks, my office network, etc.... I've learned to live with this, I just use the mobile app over cellular when I want to check up on things.

Wow, that Amazon price is awfully tempting! I wonder if Axis will honor the warranty.

Sorry for the question, but in the paragraphs above are you talking about "Netcam Viewer Mobile" or where you connecting via a web browser directly to your Syno?

Other source of frustration is that if not using MJPEG with the mobile viewer then you will have a lot of connection problems. This almost never happens with MJPEG so I ultimately just switched all of my camera feeds to MJPEG and it works fairly reliably from both Android and iOS running the free Synology surveillance application.

 

Also, be aware that since the Syno web app uses Java and uses a lot of outbound ports on the network it can be difficult/impossible to get it working if on the other end you are trying to view inside of a network with a tight firewall. I have been unable to use it from hotel networks, my office network, etc.... I've learned to live with this, I just use the mobile app over cellular when I want to check up on things.

Wow, that Amazon price is awfully tempting! I wonder if Axis will honor the warranty.

 

Sorry for the question, but in the paragraphs above are you talking about "Netcam Viewer Mobile" or where you connecting via a web browser directly to your Syno?

I'm referring to direct connection using a web browser to connect to the Synology. I'm not sure what Netcam Viewer Mobile is, the Synology mobile application is called DS Cam.

The advantage of taking a low price from an Amazon reseller is that typically you are very well protected (vs eBay or craigslist, etc). I doubt Axis will honor the warranty since they want you to go through your reseller, but honestly don't know. I got such a good price on mine that I was not overly concerned about the warranty.

Ugh! I searched the Apple App store for "Axis", not Synology.

Thanks!

EDIT: I checked Axis' website for warranty information. It doesn't say that the warranty is limited to authorized resellers. The warranty just says "A valid form of a bill of sale or receipt must be presented to obtain warranty service."

If you are interested, here's a link: http://www.axis.com/files/sales/wr_3yrltd_hw_warranty_en_1206.pdf

I never had issues with Axis support. I think the policy is more in place to punish the reseller by removing their partner status which worsens their discount levels.

Ironically, the best IOS/Android apps come from the lesser known brands like AVTech and Dahua that allow you to not only live view cameras, but also view recordings. IPCamViewer is my favorite, but as most, you can only view the camera live.

Good news on the warranty then... bonus!

It looks like there are one or two vender generic mobile apps that allow viewing of both live and recorded feeds. NetCamViewer mobile appears to be one such app.

The Synology app is actually pretty decent for live and event viewing, I just wish it worked right with MPEG-4 and H.264 as it would use a lot less BW and allow me to view my cameras for longer periods from my mobile without exceeding bandwidth.

From voip-ninja "The advantage of taking a low price from an Amazon reseller is that typically you are very well protected (vs eBay or craigslist, etc)."

I wouldn't worry about buying from eBay - especially if using PayPay. You've got guaranteed protection. There are a couple of eBay stores that sell only Axis cameras and are trustworthy. The one I bought from even price matched from another online retailer.

From voip-ninja "The advantage of taking a low price from an Amazon reseller is that typically you are very well protected (vs eBay or craigslist, etc)."

 

I wouldn't worry about buying from eBay - especially if using PayPay. You've got guaranteed protection. There are a couple of eBay stores that sell only Axis cameras and are trustworthy. The one I bought from even price matched from another online retailer.

My own experiences with eBay/Paypal are quite different. I bought a camera that did not even have an advertised feature (integrated IR) and it was a four month fight (involving literally dozens of long phone conversations) with the seller and Paypal to get my $650 back... all because I followed the seller instructions and shipped the item to the address they provided, which cleverly was not their address on file with Paypal, so then they refused to refund my money.

I have 0% trust of Paypal now, whereas with Amazon I have never once had an issue with a return and I've spent thousands of dollars annually with them on every product imaginable.

If you do use Paypal do NOT make payments from your bank account. Use a credit card that has strong purchase protection so that you can do a chargeback in a dispute. It is not possible to do a charge back if you foolishly make a payment with Paypal linked to your checking account, as I had done... you are 100% at Paypal's mercy on any kind of dispute.

Some people love Ebay and PayPal and others don't. Personally, I am not that comfortable with it. I have never actually bought anything off Ebay. Well, I did end up buying something from an Ebay seller many years ago, after contacting the seller to ask a few questions about a product. I ended up using a credit card that I had specifically for on-line purchases, so I felt OK. It technically wasn't directly through Ebay. Even with that experience, I will occassionally check Ebay but I just don't pull the trigger.

Anyway, either due to my concern with the recent burglary or the excitement with the Amazon price on the P33, I pulled the trigger last night and ordered. Well, it was probably some combination of the two, along with a non-existent WAF. I also ordered the PoE switch. The possible delivery range is fairly large, so I really don't know when I'll get it. However, I may start out running the Axis software and see how it works as compared to Voip's experience with the Syno software. As Voip notes, it would be nice to run the camera in H.264 mode.

I need to figure out exactly how to mount this thing in the soffit. I hope/plan to put a small piece of wood in there as a brace. Not looking forward to either standing on a ladder two stories up or, jimmying myself in the attic to the very edge of the roof where I'm sure to firmly stick my head with more than one nail.

Then, I'll consider camera numbers 2 and 3.....

The P33 can simply be ceiling mounted. All you should need to do is provide a CAT5/6 drop to that location that terminates where your PoE switch is located.

Thanks Voip. What I need to determine is how to get some sort of backer board behind (inside of) the soffit. I don't want to mount the camera to just the soffit, right?

In other words, I should do what Sawbones did in this thread:

http://www.cctvforum.com/post-110759.html

Thanks Voip. What I need to determine is how to get some sort of backer board behind (inside of) the soffit. I don't want to mount the camera to just the soffit, right?

 

In other words, I should do what Sawbones did in this thread:

http://www.cctvforum.com/post-110759.html

I mounted mine directly to the soffit. If the soffit is something similar to plasterboard or drywall then it should be a non issue to mount a two pound camera housing to it. At least, it's been a non issue for me.

I mount my cameras to my soffit but mine are solid 1" wood. I know in some homes, it's just a decorative vinyl product and of course, you can't suspend a camera from that, hence what Sawbones did and added support. Don't worry about the angle of the soffit, for example if you are putting it on a pitched roof soffit as I have, the camera has adjustment to compensate for that.

The problem I had with the p33 was it's size, too short compared to other vandal domes, so I had to add a 1" thick piece of wood behind to lower the camera so wasn't blocked by my facia board. You could also mount it flush with the wall under the soffit and they also make mounts where the mount attaches to the wall and the camera mounts under that facing down. I had to used that at some locations to avoid using the max angle on the lens. In domes, when you push the limits and use the edge of the dome, sometimes that part of the dome is not as clear & sharp as the middle of the dome. Sure, you can be in denial and say Axis makes pefect domes, but nobody does. Here's an Axis outdoor Q60 dome (cost thousands more than your P33) on this website - http://www.sundiegolive.com/ Take a look when he zooms in on the city, the tops of the buildings are a little blury, that's what you want to avoid

The edges of the image from my P33 that is wide open at 2.5mm are quite sharp, especially compared to the 3.0mm wide angle of the Vivotek that it replaced, which was very blurry at the corners.

It might be too late, but before you jump on the Axis P3364-VE's, you might also take a gander at the Avigilon HD dome's (such as this one) -- while I can't quote prices per other discussions mentioned elsewhere here in the forums, I believe for similar pricing you'll get better equipment with similar if not better features and in my opinion a very nicely designed software package -- yes, you will need to pay for the software on a per camera basis but the software is really good in my experience but does require windows -- and it does not need a powerful system to run like some packages need.

I've been using the Avigilon stuff (encoder + software) for close to a year now and find the software is VERY stable and just doesn't use much of the CPU.. I love how easy it is to scan through hours of video footage really easily -- the other day I spent about an hour looking through 2+ months of captured footage looking at various things -- easy peasy! I also had it setup to trigger recording based on a PIR motion sensor -- super easy!

Anyway, just throwing this out there -- no I do not work for Avigilon nor do I sell their stuff but am just a happy user and am currently looking into purchasing one or two of their new bullet cameras coming out later this month.

I mount my cameras to my soffit but mine are solid 1" wood. I know in some homes, it's just a decorative vinyl product and of course, you can't suspend a camera from that, hence what Sawbones did and added support. Don't worry about the angle of the soffit, for example if you are putting it on a pitched roof soffit as I have, the camera has adjustment to compensate for that.

That's what my soffit is - a decorative vinyl product.

Camera - Thanks for the suggestion. Since I already own a Synology "DiskStation", I started with Synology's list of compatible IP cameras. Synology also has a list of IP cameras that are (somehow) optimized for use with the DiskStation. Axis is one of the relatively few that is listed as an optimized, which helped sway me. Unfortunately, the Avigilon products are not listed as compatible.